Mak: 2:02

In the world of podcasts and broadcasting, what we do here is called a cold open.

Valerie: 2:10

That's exciting.

Mak: 2:11

That's what it is. And so many podcasts start off with like a teaser clip or something like that. I'm not a fan of that.

Valerie: 2:18

Or hi, welcome. Right.

Mak: 2:21

Yes, and then some kind of pre-recorded 30 or 60-second thing that talks about it. I just like to go right in because I really feel like that gives people it's just like starting a conversation. And it gives people a little more insight into who we really are. It really does.

Valerie: 2:38

Hopefully that's a good thing.

Mak: 2:40

Because a minute ago you were like, I have no idea how to introduce the topic of this podcast.

Valerie: 2:44

Right.

Mak: 2:45

So now I'm hoping that you have figured it out in the last 50 seconds.

Valerie: 2:49

Well, sort of, I think. But that's part of also what we do. We'll just go in and just start talking about it, and that's part of being unbound. We don't put ourselves in a box.

Mak: 3:01

Exactly. There you go. Yeah. That was a good transition.

Valerie: 3:04

Thank you.

Mak: 3:05

My name is Mac. That's Valerie. I didn't know you were gonna say I'm Valerie. That's Valerie. And we are the hosts of the Unbound Creative podcast, among many other things.

Valerie: 3:15

Yeah, we're glad you are listening. So this is a topic we wanted to speak about because it goes to the idea of putting creativity in a box. And anything that puts creativity in a box or black and white starts to raise a little bit of red flags for me. So let me give you a little bit of a backstory into why I wanted to talk about this. In the community that I run, Magic Makers, there's so much to say about that, but we recently started a new rhythm where I want the month to follow this path like a virtual creative retreat from home. And I want to start with grounding because when we make something, when we are creative, when we're making art, often it is getting us to a place where we can make something. And I want to really speak to the whole artist as part of Magic Makers, not just, oh, come in and make the art. So we're following this rhythm of grounding before the making and then the living and integrating all of that into this magical creative life. So, as part of that grounding rhythm, I started bringing in my amazing friend. Her name is Shay Carter. She is a sound healer. She is in the wellness space doing breath work and just all kinds of incredible things to help get us to this place where we can access our creativity, access our magic. And it's so amazing because every time I talk to her, we'll have to have her on the podcast. Every time I talk to her, I just have these bursts of insight that really help me see things in a different way. And her and I were talking about the concept of creativity. And in her space, which is more wellness driven, like I said, she's a sound healer. In I find those circles of healing. And anytime creativity is brought up in those circles, it's very much about do whatever. It doesn't matter. Just make a big mess and scribble and go crazy. That is the expression of creativity, just like, ah, you know, make a mess. And it's like, yes, absolutely. Art is healing, making is healing. Tapping into that childlike place where we're just gonna scribble and go crazy is like is wonderful, great. But then I also said to her, what's interesting though is that as human beings we love to build skill, right? Like we love to get better at something and build technique and really learn, and we love to puzzle solve and find the answers and get like really excited about prod progress and knowledge. We have that part of us. And then it got me thinking that in some art spaces and creative spaces, I'm thinking even art school and you know, places like that, it's all about mastery, right? Where it's you, it's about this is serious, and you gotta have the technique and discipline and really put the work in and the hours in and get better and technique and blah blah blah, you know.

Mak: 7:08

I liken it to playing piano. Like I took piano lessons for I don't know, 12, 13 years, and I was never really good at sight reading. But what I really love is playing by ear and just sitting down and playing. I'm not a master, but I'm pretty good. So but I have fun doing both. Like it's a skill that that if I really wanted to master, I could probably spend six to nine months and now become like a master because I have enough skill that I've built over time, but I enjoy it. But I'm also not just sitting down and banging on keys either. Like there's purpose.

Valerie: 7:48

So so here's my point here. Those two things we could say are opposite, right? It's an it's a paradox. It's play, doesn't matter, go crazy, just do it, versus be disciplined, master a skill, have that really good technique. And I personally have found that in creative spaces or when I'm talking to different groups, it's tended to go really, really far into the one and ignoring the other. It's this black and white way of being.

Mak: 8:27

You're not allowed to be in the middle. You have to be at one end or the other end. And and they almost both ends make you kind of feel like you're a loser if you're in the middle.

Valerie: 8:38

You're doing it wrong. Yeah, it makes it feel like you're doing it wrong.

Mak: 8:41

Right, right.

Valerie: 8:41

And I myself found myself in this sort of teetering because I love to teach people how to paint. But I'm also feel like I have all of these asterisks going at the same time. Technique is great, but play and open up and get messy. Those asterisks are there for a reason because it is a both and. And this was a huge epiphany that I had this week. And it really came from talking to Shay because I told her it feels really good to get really good at something. It feels really good to gain skills, to gain art theory, to gain color theory and shapes and composition, and I can geek out about talking about all of that stuff. And she really helps me put a new language to why I feel teetering between worlds. And it's because we're made that way. We're wired that way, that our creativity has both. As human beings, we have both. We really love to puzzle solve and get good at something. Oh, and we love childlike exploration and curiosity. And maybe what you need that day is to scribble and make a mess. And that is a hundred percent valid. Basically, everything is valid. The problem that comes in is when we shut off everything else. When we say this is valid, and then we make it an either or instead of a both and when we don't welcome the spectrum of human creativity into our hearts and minds, that's when it becomes a problem. But everything actually works, everything fits together.

Mak: 10:44

Yeah, I I this is such a great concept that I'm even I'm even trying to like, my brain is moving faster than my mouth right now. But again, it's I can only liken it to my experience. And for me, it's like cooking. It's like, do I want to go to La Cordon Blue and become a world-famous chef? No. But do I want to be able to make more than a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? Sure. I geek out and cooking in the middle. Like I watch all the cooking shows, I read a lot of cookbooks, I've I have a good set of knives, a really nice set of knives. I know how to do good knife work. I know how to I know the fundamentals of professional cooking just from my own study, but that's where I'm happy to be. I don't have to become a world-class chef, but I definitely don't, I definitely am further along. So you so it's like you have, but that's not even what you're saying. It's that I still have the freedom to explore.

Valerie: 11:45

What I'm saying is it gets to be both. Yes. I feel like if you wanted to, if it felt really good to you to master those skills, and you're like, you know what? I really want to have some incredible knife skills, and I want to be able to do this. You that is, we love that. Human beings love that. We're like, yes, let me learn. Give me more stuff, give me a challenge, give me something that I can overcome and get better, and especially if you're enjoying it. We really enjoy that. But then there are those times when you just want to throw the rule book to the wind and play and create and let it be messy and fun. And all of that is part of creative expression, and all of that is beautiful and wonderful and human. So to have the people saying it's all about mastery, you're losing something without the other side of inventiveness and play and letting go and making mess. But if you're just saying make a mess constantly, you're never you're not giving yourself what could be, showing yourself what you're made out of and giving a skill that you might really, really enjoy.

Mak: 13:02

It's it's sort of like the concept of evolution in a way. Okay. So I'm like what I'm trying to do is try to is like is like distill this down a little bit. So yeah, do you the the skills that you can get from being a master inform you to the point that when you are ready to just go wild and break all the rules, you still have a container with in which to be able to break the rules. Does that make sense? It's like if you are a master painter, there are things that are just will be always, forever, always. The way you stroke the brush, the way the paint sits on the brush, they're like these things that you must know to be a master color theory, things like that. But without the knowledge of those things, the exploration doesn't work as well.

Valerie: 13:51

Well, this is what I was gonna say. The both end of it, when we allow both expressions of our own humanity and and our wiring, they actually feed into and deepen one another. So my point is we have paradox, we have seemingly opposite ends of a spectrum. But what's beautiful in the way that we are wired up and in our creative souls, these seemingly paradoxical concepts actually work together. They're not so much of a paradox after all. What again becomes the problem is when you shut off to paradox, when we start distilling the world into these little boxes of what's actually legit or what's actually beneficial, then that becomes a problem because the paradox serves the other. Each serves the other. So I think it's exactly what you were saying that when you have a level of technical knowledge and skill, not even about mastery, but just something to work within, it actually releases some constraints in your brain that allow play to open up. It's it gives you a playground to work within that doesn't become so debilitating. And you can actually take more risks and you can become inventive because you have somewhat of a framework to work within.

Mak: 15:25

Yeah, okay. So again, I keep trying to like bring these into real-world examples, but I'm getting there. It's really cool.

Valerie: 15:31

You also didn't know really what I wanted to talk about.

Mak: 15:34

But it's it's okay because this is a this this is a very heady subject. So, you know, I'm trying to distill it in my mind and hopefully help some others who might think the same way I do. So I want to write, I feel like I want to write um, you know, a piece of music, a symphony or something like that. Sure. Could I sit down with paper and pen and put notes down and tap out one note at a time on the piano or use some kind of notation software? Sure. And will I get there eventually? Maybe. But if I take the time to understand the fundamentals of mode and theory and chord progressions and the circle of fifths and all the things that come with writing music, and I have just a basic understanding, I will be able to play so much better. By play, I don't mean like actually play an instrument, play in my mind, play creatively, play with all the melodies and things because I understand the fundamental structure of making music. I don't have to be the next Mozart in order to uh I don't have to take a Juilliard level course in order to write some fantastic piece of music that people would enjoy or that I enjoy myself. But I it is much easier for me to play and explore and try all kinds of new things, be in the sandbox when I have some tools in my tool chest.

Valerie: 17:07

Right. It actually unlocks play and curiosity and and allows you, like if I know even some basic color theory, that is going to help me be able to play with color in a way that can be extremely healing and letting go and letting myself immerse into the experience of it because I'm not so caught up in the skill building part of it.

Mak: 17:33

I think this is where the phrase know enough to be dangerous comes in.

Valerie: 17:38

Yeah.

Mak: 17:38

Because it's not that you you have a mastery level knowledge, but it's certainly better than just sitting down with nothing and throwing color on the paper.

Valerie: 17:50

Well, I won't even say better. I don't I I think the whole point is there's no better. That the problem is when we try to say this is better than this, you know?

Mak: 18:01

Maybe better wasn't the right, maybe easier. Like it's easier to play when you have the right tools. If you're in an actual sandbox and you want to build a castle, you can do it without any tools. But if you've got that little shovel and a little chisel and maybe a couple things and you know how to use them right, you don't have to be a master builder to build a beautiful sand castle, but you'll certainly do better than the guy that doesn't have any tools.

Valerie: 18:23

Well, I think what is also cool about being a human being and being a creative is that it's permission to dive in where your soul is calling you to dive in. We don't trust that. We don't trust that. We are so used to saying the shoulds, what I should be doing, instead of what actually sounds fun to me, what sounds enjoyable, what do I have an innate desire within myself to do? And somebody might say, My innate desire is to really get technically proficient and good at this because I love this. Now, that same drive could be a an enslavement to somebody else. It could give freedom to one person, but to somebody else that could actually enslave them and they could feel like trapped by it needs to be perfect and perfectionism and all of that.

Mak: 19:32

You see how like heavy that is? Yeah, it is, and I totally understand what you're saying. And I'm just having this is like I'm having a hard time distilling it, but maybe because it doesn't need to be distilled, it it there is no right and wrong. But what's interesting is that people on both ends tend to say there's right and wrong.

Valerie: 19:55

Yes, and we're we're told.

Mak: 19:57

And so yes, so we're told and let like the mastery people say, Well, you you don't can't, you're not an artist unless you're a master. Yes, this. And then the and then the people on the other end look at the masters and they go, Well, that's not real art because you're not allowing yourself to just explore and be, and that's what art is all about. And we're saying it's all of the above.

Valerie: 20:20

Or in the healing aspect of it, because I'm a huge, huge believer that creativity heals. Creativity is how we connect with who we are meant to be. And so then you have the spaces that say, don't even think about that. Don't even think about the technique. It's just make something. So, an example of that, and I've just always this has unlocked so much to me because I feel like I've teetered in both. And and I never really connected with the people who, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with anything. Let's just say that. We've this is basically the whole point of what we're saying. But I never connected with the people who said, just pick up your kids' crayons. Just pick up your kids' crayons and scribble and color. And it's like, okay, that's okay. But I, and maybe this is my firstborn high achiever coming out, and it's like, no, I want the good stuff. Like, I want to, well, what do the professionals use? What is the professionals?

Mak: 21:28

Define what you mean by I want the good stuff.

Valerie: 21:30

Like, I want good art supplies. I wanted to reach a level of proficiency.

Mak: 21:38

If you're gonna use a crayon, you're using a professional crayon. Or, or instead of a crayon, you're reaching for the high-end oils or the soft pastels.

Valerie: 21:52

I don't want to just scribble with crayons. And yes, I think that tons of people find a lot of a creative outlet for that, and that is great. But I've always been one that's like, ooh, well, what is the best supplies? And well, actually, I rather have my French-made pastels, and I want to learn how to use them in these really fun ways. And I've been thirsty for that. I've been thirsty for technique and knowledge, and I've I've enjoyed that and I've really loved the challenge of that. But then at the same time, I'm also very intuitive. And I've been on this personal journey of using art as a means of healing and self-expression. So I find myself in that world too. And then it makes me second guess myself and say, well, why am I not just satisfied with scribbling with a crayon? If that's all that it is, if that's all that creativity can be or art can be to heal me is scribbling. What is that? But I think it goes back to this. It goes back to this both and, and it goes back to what is lighting you up and what is what is actually being life-giving and not soul sucking, or what is being um, you're holding yourself back or you're being enslaved by something. Because I think there is also that person who does need to let go and just scribble with crayons. That's actually what they need is that that letting go because they're too in their own perfectionism and too caught up, and they need that level of like release and play. Does that make sense?

Mak: 23:41

It yeah, it does. It's it's so I'm just, I mean, I'm I'm with you on on all fronts here. And I guess I guess the overarching point here is if you're in either one of those extremes, great. You're there because it felt good and that's where you want to be, but but also don't get on people who aren't at either one of the extremes or in the middle. Or if you're in the middle, don't feel like you have to go to one end or the other. There's really nothing wrong with where you are.

Valerie: 24:15

There's no right and wrong.

Mak: 24:16

Right.

Valerie: 24:17

And I think the question to ask would be: are you being entrapped by wherever you are? I think that's the biggest question because this is unbound, of course. If you're in a box, then that's never a good thing.

Mak: 24:36

How how let me ask you this. Um how would you be entrapped at the extreme of I just want to take crayons and scribble? How would someone be entrapped there? Because people listening right now may not realize that they're entrapped.

Valerie: 24:59

I think it's fear. I think it could completely be fear.

Mak: 25:03

But but how? How do they know that they are?

Valerie: 25:06

Well, there's that inner, it's that inner wisdom. So if you're somebody who is just like, you go to bed at night or you wake up and you're just like, man, I would love to be able to do that, to paint like that, to write music like that, to do something like that. And there's a button. You're just like, but no, no, no, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be any good. That's not for me. I would suck, or what's the point if I'm not gonna become a professional, then I'm not even gonna try. I think it could be that that fear of trying and not being good at it, and so it keeps you stuck in that other end where you're just playing all the time because you're not allowing yourself to progress because you you're afraid of what would happen if you do. Yes.

Mak: 26:00

And then you and that could be rejection, that could be so many different things. So if you're at the other end and you have like you're like a master, how are you entrapped there? What could be enslaving you as a master?

Valerie: 26:15

What becomes robotic, it becomes perfectionist, there's a loss of soul there, there's a loss, I think, of of creativity sometimes when it's just all about hanging your hat on the technique and the mastery of it. There's a a and I think when you're enslaved in any way, in either way, you feel it. Because creativity, this idea of solving the puzzle, and it should feel life-giving. It should I think there's a level of challenge, yes, but this is for every person that you kind of discern what you need and and where you're at, and using that as the the guiding light and kind of the unlock. But I wanted to make a point even before I want to keep talking about this, but I want to go back because we were talking about how one enhances the other, how the paradox isn't actually so much of a paradox, it's actually a beautifully designed way of being. And we were talking about how if you have a level of knowledge, it gives you a playground to be able to play in and experiment. And if somebody hands me a blank piece of paper, I have enough knowledge to be like, oh, well, let me try this, at least to get me started, and then it can open me up to wider ranges of expression. Great, amazing. It works, vice versa, it works the other way. Explain that play is how we learn. They say that with kids, if they're playing, it's why we put math in songs and you know, we we do phonics and songs and things because when it's play, when it's fun, when it's joyful, that's actually how we learn. That's how we get better. So one feeds into the other. When we open up to the play and say, okay, I'm gonna kind of throw this to the wind, I'm gonna make a mess. You are gonna figure it out. You're gonna start to learn.

Mak: 28:27

So it's not, it's it's essentially not taking yourself too seriously at any step.

Valerie: 28:32

At any step.

Mak: 28:33

At any step, whether you're left, right, center, wherever you are, it's not taking it too seriously because I do see what you mean now. Because someone like who's master level, they might refuse to let themselves experiment because it goes outside of what's been taught and what's acceptable.

Valerie: 28:51

Yes, and that's not true creativity.

Mak: 28:54

No, it's not. You're in a box.

Valerie: 28:56

Yeah, you're almost a machine at that point.

Mak: 29:00

Correct, correct.

Valerie: 29:01

But the play and the experimentation and the failing, it's all 100% valid. It's all 100% healing if we let it be. But in doing that, you will also learn.

Mak: 29:15

And it's 100% necessary because nobody who has ever succeeded at anything, whether it's creatively, business life, sports, I don't care. The people who succeed and go on and live a life that they love, they fail a lot, but they learn to live in the failure. And and especially when you're creating, my goodness, you're gonna fail a ton. But each failure is a lesson. And we've covered this before, but it's it's like each each thing is each failure is a lesson that gives you another tool in your tool belt. And you can't fail if you don't try.

Valerie: 29:52

And I think what's really we have to keep in mind as well that we really want to give creatives their power back. There's so many voices, and to give creatives their power back, I would just want to say you get to make the meaning of it. We get to make it mean whatever we want it to mean. So we get to choose if we're going to be really having a horrible experience because we're so hard on ourselves, and if we don't get it technically just perfect, we beat ourselves up. That's a choice. We get to make that mean what it means, or we get to bring ourselves back into the place of play and exploration for the sake of learning and for the sake of growing, we have that capability. And I think that's part of the enslavement that I was talking about. That if we are slaves to our emotions or I guess our immediate reactions to something, instead of realizing that we have the power as creatives to give ourselves the experience that we want to have. And we get to have it all. We get to have it all. You as a creative, you get to have the experience of life-giving play and freedom and fun, and you get to have the experience of gaining a skill and getting better at a skill. You decide to which level you need or that you would enjoy.

Mak: 31:38

So true. This is okay. Do you know what this is? This is Ina Garten in the Boston Green Pie.

Valerie: 31:48

Yeah.

Mak: 31:49

Do you know what I mean by that?

Valerie: 31:50

Yeah, yeah.

Mak: 31:51

So Ina Garden, we saw her last year. Live at an event. So good.

Valerie: 31:58

And she told us she cried like the whole time.

Mak: 32:00

It was so amazing. She's just like the best. She told a story about how many years did it take her to pref to get the Boston cream pie? Was it four years or something? I don't remember.

Valerie: 32:11

But she said so many cakes went into the trash.

Mak: 32:13

Hundreds of attempts, maybe maybe a hundred attempts or something like that. But she didn't stop. She kept going and she kept trying, and she just had fun the whole time. And here's a woman who's a master.

Valerie: 32:26

She was enjoying the process of the experimentation.

Mak: 32:30

She's a master, but she wasn't afraid to experiment and be messy and have fun with it, and didn't let each failure stop her. And that's that's, I think, kind of in a nutshell. She then she finally got it and has like now the world's best Boston cream pie.

Valerie: 32:51

I think that there can almost be a healthy frustration.

Mak: 32:56

Yes.

Valerie: 32:56

You know, when you just are like, I have this within me, the answer is there. I know the pie can be made in this way that I envision it, or the painting, or the song. And it's this healthy frustration where you are not beating yourself up. You're choosing to go into the determination and because it actually feels good to do that as a human being. We want to overcome.

Mak: 33:25

I'm doing that right now. I'm learning how to code in in Swift so that I can make apps for iPhones. And I'm doing it for my Christmas music station. And I have spent probably 18 hours in the last two weeks working on my app.

Valerie: 33:45

It's true. He just disappears for an hour, and I text him, I'm like, what are you doing? Where did you go? We were standing in the kitchen and now I'm gone.

Mak: 33:57

I'm upstairs coding. But here's the thing. For you know, I've had this app for 10 years, and it never was exactly the way I envisioned it, but I always had to pay other people to do it because I didn't I didn't want to learn. Now with Chat GPT, I can learn. And each time I make some progress, but there are many uploads, and as I'm coding, things don't go right, but I don't get angry. I'm actually really enjoying what doesn't work. I've I have exercised more creativity building an app in the last 10 days than I have uh probably in the last year. And I'm enjoying the heck out of it, and it doesn't bother me when I hit you know build and it and it shows up on the screen and it doesn't work. I think it's now I get to solve another problem.

Valerie: 34:57

It's for the same reason why we love going to escape rooms and we love mysteries and we love board games, we love that little bit of a jolt of like I want to get the go back to the drawing board.

Mak: 35:12

What I have to change here and here and here.

Valerie: 35:14

Yes, strategy and figuring it out. We have that innate part of us, and that is incredibly creative.

Mak: 35:22

And so I think so. What's a takeaway that like someone can can take away from this conversation? Because we have we this is a very vast topic and it's very heady, but you know, like where where you know what what do we get out of this? Like what what do we examine?

Valerie: 35:39

First of all, I mean, I want to hear from you if this is as big of an epiphany for you as it was for us, this idea of both and that it's a paradox that is both sides of our creative soul. So if you if you have felt bad about yourself in any way for feeling like, oh, I'm not doing this enough, but then I'm not doing this enough. And it seems like we're trying to live in in an either-or scenario, what we're seeing is it's a both and and it's a sliding scale that's different for everybody. So, first of all, I do want to hear if this was an epiphany for anybody. Um, but I think the the big takeaway here is just that. If you start finding yourself thinking either or, or if you say, Well, I really want to build my skill in here, that must mean that I'm not really using my creativity for healing, or that must mean that I'm not being childlike or something because I want to gain a skill. Or, you know, if you start putting these labels on yourself or feeling that you're living in one world or the other, but you're kind of called to both. I just want to normalize that that this is part of human expression. And maybe I'm saying that to myself because I have felt living my heart in both places. I feel a natural inclination and a heart for healing people. I just do. I have a heart for that. And two years now of the Magic Makers membership here in October, I am finally coming into that and owning that. And I've had people say that to me that what you're doing feels like a purpose and a mission, and it almost feels like a um like a ministry. And I feel that way about it because I am resolute in the fact that creativity will heal your life and make it better. But I also have this part of me as I mean, I played college sports. Like I have this part of me that wants to get good and that wants to get better and show myself what I'm made out of and build skills and technique. And if I go into something new, I just want to be like a sponge, soaking in the knowledge and figuring it out. And this has freed me in so many ways because I feel like that's valid too. That's part of my wiring too, and that's part of a gift that I can give other people too. So Magic Makers lives in the in the both and I live in the both and, and you can live in the both and that's what I was gonna say is the first time you brought this up to me was a couple days ago when you had the actual epiphany in the moment.

Mak: 38:51

And what I loved about it was you said, This is this is Magic Makers. I have now defined like what Magic Makers really is. And I I thought it was fantastic because it is this marriage of yes, do I do I where am I in life? I'm not sure. I lost my creativity, so where can I go to start getting that back? Well, there's this online thing called Magic Makers, and while it has a soft pastel focus, I'm don't I don't necessarily love soft pastel, or I'm not I I don't want to soft pastel classes. That's not what it is. No, it's soft pastel is almost your instrument to help rebuild creativity, but joining Magic Makers isn't about mastering soft pastel, unless you want it to be. Like it it because it's all of these other things, and so there are people there who are mastering because they're learning from a master, but that's not the crux of the whole thing. No, it's literally reconnecting with your inner creativity, and like you've said, being on this creative retreat that just comes to you. There's there's no pressure, there's no major time, there's like it's none of this stuff. It's just it's there when you need it.

Valerie: 40:18

Here's what it is, and I literally have like the chills going through me talking about it because I am coming into the embodiment of all of that myself and being good with all aspects of myself creatively, and what that means is that it's a journey back to yourself, it's a journey back to what you need, and it's all there like a buffet. So that's part of how we started the podcast saying this rhythm, this grounding, making, living rhythm that we have, you get to plug in and lean in deeper into wherever you are and whatever part you need the most because creativity also is cyclical. I can go through a period and I did in my life when I was gaining those skills, when I was learning about color theory and art, and I was such a sponge. I could not get enough. Do you remember that, Mac? How could I not? I mean, I wanted to just read every book and read about color theory, and it was like, how cool is this? And my brain was just exploding, and that was a very much a rhythm. And then I came into this rhythm of softness with myself and healing and art as a tool for this deeper self-expression and letting go and getting into flow state. And then I come into this rhythm where I'm healing, where I'm going through things in my own life. And it became more about softening into what art can be. And we may go through all of those cycles in our creative lives constantly, you know? So this space exists for the whole of the artist. You don't have to choose, you get to have it all, you get to have a rhythm to lean into wherever you are on that spectrum of creativity. And you're gonna be on various spectrums of the creativity constantly, forever, for your life because we are cyclical human beings and we change. We don't stay the same. And I think that's what's really amazing about it, and that's why I can now confidently say this is a journey back to yourself. This is an invitation to listen to yourself and what you need and what fills your life with that spark of magic. Because when you fill your life with creativity and give yourself what you need creatively, I guarantee you I have chills again and I feel myself welling up with emotion, which is how I know that I'm feeling this so deeply. That when you open up to that creativity creativity and what you need creatively, not what other people tell you that you need, what you need, you will open up to your magic. That's magic makers. Magic makers is you in your state of magic. And when that happens, watch out. That's life changes. That's everybody around you feels that that's you in your power. Um and that rhythm is there to open you up to that.

Mak: 44:09

Well, I don't uh think I can add to that. That was very powerful.

Valerie: 44:13

I I've been on this journey myself. I think that's what it is. And I'm trying to come into wholeness with this idea of creativity and no longer feel bad about the parts of myself, the parts of myself that wants to learn and get better at something versus the parts of myself that wants to release and play. It's all a both and. And I keep saying that, but that's what Unbound is all about, right? Like we are taking these concepts that we're told and saying yes, and all of this is also true when there's so many voices that just say, be this way, and then that's it.

Mak: 44:53

So, I mean, if you're listening to this and this is resonating, go to Val's website, valeriemecanned.com, look for magic makers, check it out. Because it we what we're seeing on the inside of this thing is life change at every level. It's to the point where when I talk to people about it, like if you come and you and you get in there and you get in the mix, you can't just be there for a week. Like it's gonna take a little time, but your life will change. And Val is just doing a fantastic job of bringing that out and that rhythm and the and the new and the teachers and the and all the the things that are a part of it. It's so good. It's so, so good. So make sure you check it out and um in the process keep working on your creativity and that thing that is inside of you right now that's you've kind of been like, oh man, I should I should do this, I should do this, I should do this, or I feel this, but I'm but I don't know, I'm not good enough, or I don't have the time, or whatever the case might be. Do us both a favor, but more for you. Lean into that, take a step forward with that. And if you want some people to do it along with, Magic Makers is the place you need to be.

Valerie: 46:05

You actually know what you need to lean into, and you know what is an entrapment and what would actually where, like on that paradoxical line, you need to lean more into to open you up to your own wholeness. So that's what we want for you. Whole alive people in their magic. Like, let's let's go. All right, thank you so much for being with us. Um, let us know what you think. If you had takeaways here, you can DM me at Valerie McKeon. Um, Mac's DMs are open as well.

Mak: 46:42

At that MacGuy at Mac is M A K.

Valerie: 46:45

And if this was meaningful to you or if this would help somebody that you know, we always appreciate reviews, we always appreciate shares and sharing this with someone who might need this message. We will see you next time. Thanks. Bye.