Mak: 0:04

It's so funny because it seems like every time we're about to do a podcast, we get into a huge fight first. Why is that? It's like we come in to sit down and record, and we get into a huge fight.

Valerie: 0:20

If you're new hey, it's not a huge fight.

Mak: 0:22

Well, it wasn't huge. Well, it kind of was. But it's like every single time. If you're new, we're husband and wife, so like this is a thing. But um, but yeah, like it just feels like what's going on.

Valerie: 0:38

I didn't know he was gonna say that, by the way, which I never do when we do these podcasts because we don't know what's going to come out of each other's mouth, especially when we start.

Mak: 0:49

But that's why this is so real. It's so good. Because we're being honest and we're being true to people. So that's what it is.

Valerie: 0:56

We're just regular people.

Mak: 0:57

We are, we're truly regular people. I'm Mac. That's Val, and this is the um, what is this called?

Valerie: 1:07

Well, I'm excited because I have a latte right now that I've been nursing for seven hours.

Mak: 1:14

It's gotta be disgusting at this point.

Valerie: 1:16

It's so good. I don't want it to end. It's I okay, I had this life-changing latte like years ago, and it was an almond latte. It was like the perfect sweetness, everything about it, and I have been on the hunt. Every time I see an almond latte, I've been on the hunt for something to get close to this latte. And today I got kind of close to it. It's not quite there, but it's so good. So I'm nursing my latte.

Mak: 1:42

You know what's funny? I've been hearing about this latte for probably five or six years. And do you know where she got the latte? At the Atlanta Airport. This wasn't in France or Italy or anywhere. It wasn't at some fancy coffee shop here in Nashville or in New York City. No, it was at the Atlanta.

Valerie: 2:02

Atlanta airport, but I've never been back since. Yeah, we've never had a reason to fli fly we haven't flown through Atlanta. We live near Atlanta.

Mak: 2:10

Right. So it would be very we would drive there. Yeah, yeah. So we wouldn't uh we wouldn't be flying. But but I'm glad that this got this got close. If you listen and you know of this almond latte at the Atlanta airport, because Val can't even remember the name of the coffee shop, um, please email us and let us know what it is. Because maybe for your birthday this year, I'll just buy you a one-way ticket to the Atlanta. Ticket to the Atlanta. Well, maybe maybe we should get you a return flight soon.

Valerie: 2:39

I was gonna say it needs to come with uh something else on the other end of that.

Mak: 2:43

A ticket to the Atlanta airport, and you can find it and then and then come home.

Valerie: 2:47

Uh so anyway, yeah, anyway. This is the Unbound Creative podcast, like we said, and there is so many things that we want to talk about, but there's a phrase in particular that I think I see at least once a day on Instagram or just in general conversation. This is a phrase that every single person listening has, I'm sure, heard.

Mak: 3:20

And uttered.

Valerie: 3:21

And uttered multiple, multiple times. And I, it is one of these phrases that now just gives me this like internal ick, like this internal cringe when I hear it.

Mak: 3:34

And it's because it's so not real, it's not true, it's something that almost like was created to keep people down, you know, that's like a shaming thing.

Valerie: 3:44

We'll get into all of that.

Mak: 3:45

Like self-shaming and shaming of others, but for no reason.

Valerie: 3:49

Yeah, and it's a lot of how we are conditioned to value ourselves, which I think is a very dangerous, dangerous way of valuing ourselves as people and especially as creatives, somebody doing creative work that you feel passionate about that's coming from this part of you. I think it's a phrase that just underlines this idea of struggle and suffer being necessary, even for something to be valuable. So the phrase is blood, sweat, and tears. How many times have you heard or even yourself said there's never any judgment? I put my blood, sweat, and tears into this. Uh, first of all, that's it's kind of disgusting.

Mak: 4:43

It is disgusting. If someone's like, I put my blood, sweat, and tears into this dinner, I'm like, I ain't eating it, friend. And you know, and when it comes to like people creatives, oh my put my blood, sweat, and tears into this piece. It's like nuck, don't you? Have you heard of paint?

Valerie: 4:59

It's like, no, the image that that paints, but we don't even think about it anymore because like most cliches, you just say it and then you don't really even process what you're saying.

Mak: 5:10

Well, let's let's talk about it from the standpoint of it's literally a cliche for I worked my butt off and I worked, I worked, it was I didn't just work hard, I worked to the point of extreme, extreme exhaustion and emotional draining and like blood is. Well, let's think of pain pain. Sweat is like exertion, exertion, excruciating physical, like hard hardness and tears, of course, would be emotional.

Valerie: 5:40

Sadness, yeah. It was like painful and emotional and physical exertion.

Mak: 5:45

And how many things do you want? Like, how much do you consume in your life or or what things do you participate in that you find joy from someone's pain, sadness, and exertion? It's like something doesn't line up there energetically.

Valerie: 6:07

Yeah, something's not right, especially when it comes to creativity and creatives. And I actually think we're gonna make a lot of people mad with this. Yeah, if you're triggered right now, like we're gonna make a lot of people mad, but you know what? That's okay because it needs to be said. And I want to say this nothing's ever scripted here. Big surprise. Um everybody, everybody can see that. Yeah. Um but I want a way to say this that is yes, I recognize when you've put a lot of effort into something. And look, life is that way. Life has circumstances that come in, there are obstacles put in our way. We love a an underdog story. We, you know, the the hero's journey who was on their soul's path and their soul's mission and came up against obstacles and overcame those obstacles. And that's that's life, you know, that's a great thing. That's part of how we grow. And in a business, yeah, things come up in a business, and we do experience pain sometimes, or we experience just times that are emotional, and it's it's as a result of being a human being. Look, we is what I'm saying.

Mak: 7:23

We understand that you don't go through life without blood, sweat, or tears. They're necessary in life, but also how much of that is created unnecessarily.

Valerie: 7:35

How much are we glorifying that versus it's in the glorification because instead of someone saying, I put my blood, sweat, and tears into this, what if they were like, I had such a freaking good time making this, it didn't feel like work at all. I was in my flow. Because here's the thing researchers, people say we are the happiest when we are in flow state. And when we are in flow state, that is some kind of actual magic.

Mak: 8:07

Well, this is what I was gonna say to your point is if you if someone is saying I put my blood, sweat, and tears into this, then they probably shouldn't be doing it.

Valerie: 8:17

I was just gonna say it's like a misaligned thing.

Mak: 8:19

This means that you're not doing the right thing. And this is why people this is gonna trigger people because you go to work every day and you feel like you're putting in blood, sweat, and tears. And now here I am saying that means you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. But that's the little bit of tough love for you. Because when you're in flow state, the people who like really, really do well in life, like the people like at the top of their game, I don't care if it's business people or creatives or like let's talk or or or athletes, they they yeah, do they put in quote unquote blood, sweat, and tears? Sure, but it doesn't feel like blood, sweat, and tears to them. They love every second of it. They're doing it because it's their passion, it's their flow state, it's what lights them up, it's what fills them up. Taylor Swift doing her tour and putting out her album at the same time, that was not blood, sweat, and tears for her. She actually said in an interview, someone asked her the question How did you do this? You were on this mega tour and you did this album in like three weeks in the UK. How did you manage to? She goes, I loved every second of it. And it's like that is flow state, and that's not reserved for people at the time.

Valerie: 9:27

Well, here's a question. Maybe here's a perspective. What if blood, sweat, and tears works? You know what I mean? Like, what if there are two choices? You can go the blood, sweat and tears route and make something happen, or you can go the ease, flow state, delight, joy version of things. But we are conditioned not to, it's like with two forks in a road. This one is hardship and pain and blood, sweat and tears, and this route is ease and joy and delight and fun. We are literally conditioned, I think, to say, nope, it's the blood, sweat, and tears.

Mak: 10:07

That point that you just made is the number one, is the best point. I can't say anything that's gonna top that point in the rest of this podcast because that's a hundred percent the case. And this is why I'm saying, and I think what what we're saying here is you do have two choices. There are people who grind and they make millions of dollars and they go on to be really successful, they have great careers or whatever, but they're grinding and they're grinding and they're grinding and they're grinding and they're grinding. And then there are people who get into flow state and they figure out what they love to do and they grind at that. But when you're grinding at something you love, it doesn't feel like work. It doesn't feel like grinding, it's exciting.

Valerie: 10:45

I wouldn't even say the word grinding because that is a j zone of genius. Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying.

Mak: 10:49

I'm using the word grind here as in like it's not actual grinding, but if you would compare two people, you could say they're both doing the same amount of work. But the person who's doing blood, sweat, and tears, it's grinding, and this person who's in flow state is grinding, but they don't feel like they're grinding. The person who's who's grinding in non-flow state is blood, sweat, and tears. And so that's that like that's the point.

Valerie: 11:11

Well, and we talk to a lot of creatives all the time. We talk to artists. I think one of the biggest issues that we hear from artists that we work with is this idea of pricing and valuing. How do you value creativity? How do you put a price tag on something that you made to put out there for other people? And one of the biggest mental blocks, and that's so much of what this is with pricing, which we need to do a whole like a whole thing, a whole series on that. But one of the biggest things is you first have to value yourself. That's number one. When you're gonna price anything, it really comes from you first. You have to believe in that, you have to believe in that value. So the question is why do so many artists and creatives struggle with this? And I think a lot of women, especially, we have this real struggle. Men too, of course, struggle with valuing themselves, but where does that come from? And I think that this blood, sweat, and tears issue, there's many reasons why we struggle with it. I think shame is at the center. Um, what's that of the wheel? Like the center part of the wheel, shame. Yeah. And then there are a bunch of things coming off of them. What is that word?

Mak: 12:36

It's a wheel and spoke. Am I saying spoke? I mean, I mean, I might even be wrong.

Valerie: 12:40

Shame is at the center, is what I'm saying. And then there are all of these offshoots of shame. And I actually think that blood, sweat, and tears is a shame issue because it can feel like we have to justify what we are charging and the value by saying, Well, I put my blood, sweat, and tears in it. This is valuable. It's it's almost a shame thing if we say, Hey, this took me like not that long of a time, or I had the time of my life and I was in joy and I was in flow state, and I'm still gonna charge a high value for that. That is you really need to have some shame work to be able to offer that value from the place of joy versus from the conditioned place, which is grind and work hard and put your blood, sweat, and tears into it. Does that make sense?

Mak: 13:34

Yeah, because we we had this whole discussion in our unbound group just uh yesterday, and the and I think it's tied to this idea of exchanging time for money, and which we're taught from a very young age that that your your time is worth X amount of dollars based on what you make per hour. And and people are taught that, that though that is the international exchange. You exchange your time for money, and you get money, and that's how you live your life, and then you go back to giving up your time. But time is so much more valuable than money, and when you learn to separate exchanging time from for money, that's when you can really grow your money side. And there are like I'm sorry, but the people who are wealthier and wealthier, they have learned that they can actually pay to get more time. That's they they're the people they don't cut their grass, they don't do their laundry, they you know, these these little tasks that eat away at our time when time is what we want, because when we are in control of our time 100%, we get freedom. And I think there's not a human being alive right now that isn't just chasing freedom. A lot of people think they're tra chasing wealth, but truthfully, they want freedom. Wealth is the mechanism by which they gain freedom. So the blood, sweat, and tears is equated, in my opinion, to that. It is I gave up all this time and all this energy and all of this, and because I equate time with financial value, then something that only took me 15 minutes because I was in flow state is not as valuable as something that I grinded away at for three weeks. So, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. It's the it's it's the product that is valuable itself, not how much time it took to make it, how much energy was put into making it. And this is where like we make the point of Billy Joel, which we've used he wrote um New York's state of mind in like 15 minutes. Is that song worth more than a song that like um I Can't Make You Love Me by Mike Reed, sung by Bonnie Raitt? It took him two years to write that song. How do you, if we would equate value, you would say, well, the Mike Reed song is much more valuable, but it doesn't matter because the emotional charge you get from either one of those songs is fulfilling, the time had nothing to do with it. And that's what we're saying is like I really think this blood, sweat, and tears thing comes to this idea that time and value financially are tied together, which they are not.

Valerie: 16:24

Or it's like suffering tied to value. It's almost like I'm worth it.

Mak: 16:29

The more it hurt, the more it's worth.

Valerie: 16:31

The more it hurt, the more it's worth. How sad is that? And especially for creatives, like, can we just, you know, delete can we just like delete this from our consciousness and think more toward you have a unique magic within you that you have. It is yours, and when you are operating in your unique magic and in your set of gifts and talents and your passions, these things are built into each one of us uniquely and individually. And we are not taught to tap into that. We are not taught to tap into desire. That could be a whole other podcast and a tangent about how we're not taught to go toward our desire. We are taught to almost like fear our desire. But those things are in there for a reason. The things that you like, the things that you just have a natural bend towards and a leaning towards. When you go toward that, you start to bump up against your zone of genius. And what happens? Like if you love something, if you're having fun doing something, that to me makes it more valuable because you're probably getting awfully close to the flame of your unique burning magic. And that is valuable, and that's something that nobody else has.

Mak: 18:08

And what's interesting about this is oftentimes when we bump up against that and we feel really good, we say, Well, I love this so much, I shouldn't get paid for it.

Valerie: 18:20

Or I would do it for free. I would do it for free.

Mak: 18:22

Which is probably true. And you know what? That's a phrase that's as bad as blood, sweat, and tears that I hate. I would do it for free. Yeah, that's true. You would do it for free, but that's a sign that you're doing the thing you should be doing.

Valerie: 18:33

It's because you love it so much.

Mak: 18:35

And when you love it so much and you are in flow, you're going to be better at it than virtually everybody else because you love it so much and you're so passionate. So you should get paid more for it than everybody else gets paid. But look, but here's what we do. We have been conditioned to think that we aren't deserving of being paid for something we love.

Valerie: 18:56

That's the shame. That's the shame coming back.

Mak: 18:59

We only we can only be paid if it hurts. Yes. And and that is the lie that is holding everybody back. That is the lie, especially creatives. That's like, oh, I die for my art. Oh, I would, you know, the starving artist, that whole thing, it's such crap. Because it's like, oh, only for me to be creative, I have to be in pain. No, the most creative people who do the best they write when they're when they're happy, when they're thrilled, when they're in like it's the idea of spreading joy and love and happiness and peace and fulfillment when you're writing and being in that place. Oh my goodness, look out.

Valerie: 19:36

And creativity is so human that yes, it does carry us through every single season of being a human being. Yes, there's part of being there's part of Mac is looking. We need to start recording this. I'm sorry, I don't mean because I said season.

Mak: 19:57

I don't want to interrupt your point, but this is why we can't ever do this in video. Because when Val and I are each making a point, we're like holding up fingers at each other, like, don't say anything, don't say anything. I'm making a point, I'm making a point. We're like, that's why we could never do it in video.

Valerie: 20:09

So what I was gonna say is creativity is so human, it is going to bring you through every season. So the painful ones, the it's a constant companion there. Yes, we have that for creativity. But when we're talking about just the natural way that you move through the world and make a living, make a profession or offer value to the world. I mean, every person has something of value to bring to the world. It's it's this unique spark, this unique seed that you have inside of you. I'm thinking of the children's book, Miss Rumpheus.

Mak: 20:50

Oh, I love that book.

Valerie: 20:51

It's so good. And it's that you're here to make the world a more beautiful place. And people do that in a hundred different ways, more than a hundred, in a million different ways. People make the world a more beautiful place. But the point is, you have a gift, you have something special inside of you that only you can offer and only you can bring forth and give into the world. And that is something that's beautiful and as natural as a flower growing outside. And again, that's not to say that there's not going to be obstacles and life and things that come up. We all experience that. It's not, you know, this perfect smooth sailing. That's part of each of our own individual journeys to turn us into who we're supposed to be. And when we have adversity, that gives us new layers of learning and it's it's really succumbing to just this flow of of life that is going to lead you to those places. Yes. And there's a difference though between that and this constant struggle. It's just not supposed to feel that way. I feel like us in our unique magic and our zone of genius is supposed to, for the most part, feel as natural as the leaves, you know, the leaves growing and the flowers blooming. We are nature. We and if we are living to that nature inside of us, that nature, that God-given nature that we are given in our unique gifts, is it gonna feel like blood, sweat, and tears? Are there any trees out there saying this is blood, sweat, and tears to produce their leaves or vegetables produce their bounty? No, they do what they're going to do that they are made and wired to do. But we're not teaching people that. Where it's like you constantly, you're grinding, you're producing, it's it's production at all costs. It's your what you produce is more important than than who you are or who you're being. And it's just gotten us so far away from I think just our natural wiring. And it's made people tap down those parts of them that do feel like ease because we don't trust it then. Right. If we're if we're good at it or it's ease-filled, how often do you hear people you say to someone, oh my goodness, like you did that? You're good at that. And they're go, oh, that that's that's nothing. Well, it was nothing to them. We dismiss it. We dismiss our gifts because it was easy, because it was fun, because it was joyful. But then other people look at those gifts and they're like blown away. Blown away. We're not taught. So this is like an entire reprogramming, I think.

Mak: 25:21

And so you what you should do, a takeaway that you should take from this conversation is lean in, start noticing like those those dreams that you have when you're daydreaming, and those desires that you find yourself saying, Oh, this is something that I would love, or I, you know, lean begin leaning into that. Begin leaning into that. Because the truth is you wouldn't have those desires for the things that you want to do with your life if you weren't meant to do those things. Like that's not how we work. We don't dream about things that we can't do. And if you immediately like start dreaming, and then your left brain clicks in and goes, nope, nope, nope, here are all the reasons you can't do that. Work through shutting that down. Work through saying, No, I can do that, I can lean into this, and and and and begin to explore that because you should absolutely be able to get paid to do the things that you love and get paid a lot of money to do those things. We are giving you that permission. The idea that you have to grind in order to make money and then and then have you know four hours of happiness on the weekend or whatever, that's that's all bogus. And if you're a creative, start recognizing this as well. And and you know, especially when it comes to things like pricing your work and all that kind of stuff, stop thinking about it in terms of exchange of blood, sweat, and tears and emotions for money. No, it's just it should be all about the the product that you created.

Valerie: 26:58

Well, the value that you provide to somebody else by giving it to them or them having it, by being life-giving to them. It's like there's value in your magic, there's value in the beauty and the joy and the delight of it. That's what everybody is searching for. Everybody is searching for those elevated states of being, and when you are in that and providing value from that place, it is valuable.

Mak: 27:27

I can't like I can't tell you. I'm gonna use my my grandmother as an example. She had this brownie recipe that was insane. Everybody, everybody loved these brownies. I'm saying, like, people will come for miles when she made these things. I don't know, it's probably like Einegarten-level brownies, right? And she just gave them away, gave them away, gave them away, gave them away. She could have eaten people would have gladly handed over money to her for these brownies. She just gave them away. Is there virtue in giving away? Sure. Great. But she had something really, really, really special that she did. And if that is you, if you're doing something in your life and everyone's like, man, you should you could charge people for this, you can and you love doing that thing, you need to start leaning into that. That is something you need to look at because we have been taught incorrectly that the things that we love and we create, we should just give away. No, you can you that should be your life. Start looking at that.

Valerie: 28:27

If it comes easy to you, that's a good indicator. That's a good sign. That's a good sign. That's a good sign that there's real value there and that you could be in alignment. And could it be that we are supposed to be thriving in our gifts and our natural leaning? Again, I I use nature as examples, but just like nature outside, when it is given the resources that it needs, it just follows who it is made to become and it becomes that thing. And what if we are all that same way? But we are the only things in nature that hold ourselves back from that because we think we're not struggling enough, or no, I didn't work hard enough, therefore I can't put a value on this. And I'm gonna say it again. It's so insidious, and it is all shame. It is all shame because it starts with how we value ourselves and how we think of worthiness in ourselves for the gifts that we bring to the world. You know what's really cool? I saw a reel from somebody and um who I follow, and she was like, you know what? I'm obsessed with my business. She said, I am so happy. I love that. I'm so aligned. She said, I am obsessed with my offers. I am obsessed with working in my business and on my business. I am obsessed with the people in my business, and I'm obsessed with all of it. And I just wanted to tell you all that that I'm having the best time and I'm obsessed, and I love it.

Mak: 30:02

Yeah.

Valerie: 30:03

How groundbreaking is that? Have you, how many business owners, how many creatives and the value of yourself, the self-worth, the lack of shame that you need to be able to stand tall and say, I love this, and I'm good at this, and other people love it too, because I'm so good at this.

Mak: 30:24

We all probably know somebody in our lives who loves what they're doing. They're just and they are the best people to be around. You love going and buying from them or having them serve you or cut your hair or whatever it is because they're just so into their job and what they do and they love it, and you feel that. You feel it, feel it, and you go, My goodness, that that that mechanic, that he's definitely doing what he's supposed to be doing. That's the person that we all take our cars to. It's like, so why would you be any different? Yeah. We that we can literally feel that.

Valerie: 31:02

So, no more blood, sweat, and tears energy. And you know what? It's October now. We're coming into it's gonna be holiday seasons. I feel like we see the blood, sweat, and tears line for small business Saturday like crazy. So he like really comes out. So we're telling you this now. When you start to feel that energy, let's pick. Pivot it and let's actually value in other people, which by the way, we probably just already naturally do. The blood, sweat, and tears thing is a conditioned thing. But just like you said, Mac, I feel like what we do actually love are the people who love what they're doing because it makes you love it too. When you talk to somebody who's enthusiastic and they're just like, I love this so much, I have to share this, it sucks you in. You're like, oh, I want to learn from that person or I want to be around that person or tell me more. I want to buy from that person. We are like, you know, flies to a light when somebody is enthusiastic. So let's just notice when that comes up. And for you, if it really does honestly feel that way, for the most part, not just the normal obstacles and things, but if it's constantly feeling like a grind and you're maybe pushing back and you're like, but I actually do feel like I'm pouring blood, sweat, and tears into this, it might be time just for an alignment check and just thinking, what could make this more fun for me? That is a question that I think solves so many problems for a creative. If you're in a place of angst, if if with business or even the creation process itself, if you stop and say, What would make this more fun for me? What your brain does, it will go to work to search for answers to that question and it will bring you back to your more aligned state. We were never meant to be those kids that stopped having natural fun and play and desire and delight and zeal and zest for life. That is who you are. We're conditioned out of that. So go back to that question: what would make this more fun for me? And let us know how how this has helped you. If you had any aha's during this podcast, be sure to let us know. Um, you can find me on Instagram at Valerie McKeon. Mac is at that MacGy. At that MacGy. So please let us know. And thank you so much for being here and listening.

Mak: 33:39

And we are, I just want to say this one last thing. We're giving you permission to like make your life one that you love and that feels good. Make money doing what you love.

Valerie: 33:48

And charge for it because that has value.

Mak: 33:50

Just because it's you love doing it doesn't mean you shouldn't charge for it. As a matter of fact, it probably means you should charge triple.

Valerie: 33:56

We don't want your fluids in it.

Mak: 33:58

No. On that note, thank you for listening to the Unbound Creative Podcast.

Valerie: 34:03

We'll see you next time.

Mak: 34:04

Bye-bye.