Mak: 0:08

so we took a week off to go to the beach and we said we were gonna record when we got back so that we could stay on track. But then we decided to stay an extra day at the beach and therefore we're. We took a week off, but we're back now we're back.

Valerie: 0:26

We're excited to be back continuing our conversation, that we've been having so many of these conversations while we were away and then continuing to come back and we're always saying we need to record this, we need to make it a podcast, just our normal conversations. So that's what we hope to do in this podcast Just bring you along into the conversations that we have. And it's so funny because sometimes we will literally be in the middle of just our normal everyday conversation and we'll go stop, don't say any don't say any more because we want to have this conversation on the podcast and this topic that we're going to be talking about today.

Valerie: 1:08

That's what happened.

Mak: 1:09

And I think this topic for today is something that you and I talk about nonstop. I feel like this is sort of the crux of a lot of what we're doing and everything that is driving us forward.

Valerie: 1:26

It's a big part of it. It is by the way, this is the Unbound Creative Podcast.

Mak: 1:31

Welcome.

Valerie: 1:32

And I'm Valerie.

Mak: 1:33

I'm Mac. We're husband and wife. We're both creatives. We both have built large creative-based businesses, had a lot of success, had a ton of failure. Creative based businesses had a lot of success, had a ton of failure and have really landed in this great place where we want to help creatives and we think everyone is creative in one way or another Finally start living a creative, fulfilling life and make money doing it.

Valerie: 2:00

And that can look like so many different ways. I don't want to get off on a tangent, but there's so much that's put on creatives that are a linear path. That makes no sense at all. It's creative. So we think that in order to be considered living a creative life, it has to look a certain way and you have to monetize a certain way. Or if you're creative, there's a school of thought that's like no, you want to keep the art and the creativity pure and not monetize it and all of this stuff.

Valerie: 2:33

And we're just the whole point of being unbound and living unbound as a creative is that there are no rules. There is a creative life for every single person. We firmly believe it and it's not going to look like anybody else and it's not going to fit into these cultural boxes that that have been laid out for us, like, oh, you want to be a successful artist, okay, do this and this and this. And it's like no, there's so much more to our creativity and our humanity, which is literally what we create is at the core of our humanity and expressing that in the world, and it is so much bigger and deeper and wider and more expansive than we're taught that it is.

Mak: 3:24

And God is the ultimate creator. He created everything and if we're made in his image, then we're made to create, not to live in this narrow lane of just work, work, work, work, work all the time.

Valerie: 3:38

And formulaic, and you are wired for it. It is in your very DNA that you are wired to do this and you are wired for it, like it is in your very DNA that you are wired to do this and you are wired to create.

Mak: 3:50

And you don't have to be a visual artist or a musician or a sculptor or whatever a dancer to be considered creative. Anyone who has an inspired thought about something is creative, so you can be creative. So so many people out there are creative but they've never leaned into it because they're like oh, I'm not a good painter. This isn't this. We're not just talking about people in the arts. If you have ever created anything like a meal plan, you are creative.

Valerie: 4:22

But in the arts certainly too. But the point is, when we are living as mainly consumers, it is just scientifically proven that we're unhappy. We're not living up to our purpose. It is in unlocking your creativity and what you can make and what you can bring to the world and the beauty that you can create and materialize that fills us with purpose and makes us feel happy. So that's really what creativity is is switching that mode from being mostly a consumer to somebody who also produces beauty in the world.

Mak: 5:02

The opposition of the opposite of depression and anxiety is actually creativity.

Valerie: 5:09

It's expression.

Mak: 5:10

It is, yeah, creativity, expression, production. So if you're living in a life that feels anchored in those two things and a lot of people are the answer scientifically scientifically is to actually begin to create. But we have been taught as a society that when we're feeling that way, you dig deeper into consumerism, we sink more into entertainment, into food, into all of that kind of thing, when actually, if you spend time and create, it really helps pull you out of that place.

Valerie: 5:47

Yeah, we live in such a left brain society that it's almost like we don't trust the right brain thing, so it's really easy to write those things off. But that's actually holding the key and the antidote to so much, so much of our suffering.

Mak: 6:06

So, with that said, we want to talk about what we think is probably the biggest lie perpetuated upon creatives.

Valerie: 6:14

There are so many.

Mak: 6:15

This is one of them it's. So it is vast and we'll cover as much as we can in the podcast in the future. We also don't want to sit here and be doing four hour episodes. We can in the podcast in the future. We also don't want to sit here and be doing four hour episodes, but this one, I think, as of today, the recording of this podcast.

Valerie: 6:35

we feel like this is the biggest one, and we just heard this recently from a few different people.

Mak: 6:40

We were at a party, a dinner party, and the topic of creatives and business came up and everyone just blindly agreed with the idea that if you are creative, you know in your artistry and, oh, I can't worry myself with matters of business.

Valerie: 7:09

It's so deep in so many ways, because not only do we perpetuate this idea that artists are bad at business in the example that I just gave it's almost like you're supposed to be it's really really sneaky where it's like there's this idea of a real artist and they're just so flighty and doing all of this stuff, and that, by its very nature, means that you cannot be good at business. So there's that angle almost like you're supposed to be bad at business if you're an artist but then there's also just the, the vibe and the feeling that that is.

Mak: 7:55

It is just that way well, the idea is that people who are creative lack some kind of fundamental grounding that is required to be a business person.

Valerie: 8:04

Or organization or discipline.

Mak: 8:09

But all that owning a business is is solving a problem for somebody else. That's literally it. You solve a problem for somebody else. They pay you money. That's a business. I'm hungry. I go to a restaurant. I pay somebody to bring me food. My house is dirty. I pay someone to clean the house. I need health insurance. I pay a company to give me health insurance. No matter how you break it down, I need my taxes done. I hire a CPA. They do my taxes. That's all a business is. Now, who is best set up to solve problems creatively in the world?

Valerie: 8:50

people who are creative but before we even get into that, I want to just let's, let's say this could it be? Let's just consider this for a second, because this was our conversation earlier, mac. What if it is this messaging that we've been telling everybody, this cultural messaging that everybody has just accepted to be true? What if that is actually the cause? Like, what if that is actually it's not, that it's, it's telling a factual truth. What if it's in the story that we've been telling everybody that artists and creatives are bad at business, that that is actually the catalyst which is making them bad at business? It's kind of like if you tell somebody, hey, you suck at this, you're not good, does that make them bad at it?

Valerie: 9:53

I think it does, because it's a labeling thing, it's an identity thing. It all comes down to story and what we know to be a fact is that our belief system, our beliefs, come first. The belief and who you are being is going to determine the doing. So if the belief system is that you've just blindly accepted I'm an artist, therefore I'm bad at business, could it have been in just the story? Not that it's true.

Mak: 10:27

That's 100% the issue in my opinion, and we have two young girls and we were even just talking earlier about how when, in raising them, there is all this scientific evidence now to support the idea that if you tell your kids things when they're young, they will carry that with them their entire lives. So if you say things like oh, money doesn't grow on cheese and you've got to work hard to make money, and all of these things, they'll go through their lives thinking that and that will actually become ingrained and they will make making money harder. They will look at money with this different, this different perspective. It's the same way if you say you know, santa Claus is, you know, is real, and he comes and brings presents every December 24th. They believe that and they carry that with them.

Mak: 11:16

It's the same concept here is that we believe a story we're told and you probably, if you're thinking about it right now, you may have had a teacher or a parent or somebody you looked up to, a mentor or something at some point in your life who told you you know what this isn't for you. You might have something you love to do, but they said, ah, you're just not good at this, because my dad has a story like that. He was told he has a tin ear and so he never tried to pursue singing. Your dad actually has a very similar story, and what happened was they just believed it and so it was taken off the table. Because we believe the stories and, you know, frankly, I think therapy has exploded in the last 15 years because of the awareness that the conditioning that was brought upon us as kids, millennials as kids, and so forth, led us to have all kinds of problems in the future, and now we're trying to undo all that. This is a similar situation.

Valerie: 12:17

Well, the fact that in children which is a great example they are going to live up to the expectation. So if you expect them and treat them like they're a bad kid, they're often going to become a bad kid, like that's what's expected of them. So we're very intentional of how we speak to our daughters. Say you are a kind person, you are creative, you can figure out this problem, you are capable. We're constantly saying that to our girls because that belief in them is going to shape their belief in themselves.

Mak: 12:55

Well, we see it now with them. Already Our youngest, our two-year-old. For a long time, for about six months, she would try to do something undo a zipper, open a drawer, take a lid off a basket, something like that and she'd say I can't do it, I can't do it. And never once did we step in and do it for her. We say, yes, you can, you can figure it out. And she'd go, okay, and it might take her a couple of tries, but she would figure it out. And now she never says that, she never says I can't do it, she's figuring things out on her own.

Mak: 13:25

And but this is not braggadocious, this is just like we're not geniuses here. This is just the way it works. And so we as adults have to recognize that we, we have the same problems. So if we're hearing all the time from society that that as a creative, you're going to be starving and poor and suffering for your art and you're no good at business and you shouldn't try because you're all of these things, then of course you're not going to live into that. Now there are always outliers. There are people who actually get motivated by that negative reinforcement and go I'm going to show you that I can, and that's awesome, but that's very rare compared to just people living into it.

Mak: 14:15

And I think when COVID hit and everybody started working from home, all kinds of stuff started to change. People began to realize you know what this nine to five thing is kind of a drag, and now all these companies are having a hard time getting people to come back to work. We saw a massive shift out of corporate living and people starting businesses, being entrepreneurial, being more creative, because they got a taste of wait a minute, I can have a good life doing life the way I want to, rather than what I've been told my whole life it has to be School, college, nine to five, retire, and so there's this massive shift taking place in all of that, and I think COVID was kind of a catalyst, and so what we're talking about is the same, is similar in concept, where all of a sudden there was this big awakening no, I can actually have a life that I love and work from anywhere, and and I don't have to be stuck in the confines of a definition that somebody came up with a hundred years ago I can actually live the life that I want. And that's when we saw the great. What did they call it the great?

Mak: 15:29

exodus or a great quitting, or I forget what it was called. So when, looking at that as evidence of behavioral change, when there's a realization that you don't have to listen to the story you've been told this is this is this is the exact same thing. So if you're creative, if you are an artist, if you are a singer or if you're just someone who has creative desire but you've never followed it because you're telling yourself these subconscious stories on repeat that you can't, then you never will.

Valerie: 16:05

Or the fact that I'm creative means that I will be bad at it, and then it stops you from even trying. It just is like oh okay, I'm creative, I'm bad at it. No, I can't go there. But I want to say, though, I think there is a tendency also in our culture, and it drives me crazy, that there's a pedestal put on becoming a full-time artist or a full-time creative, and this also drives me insane, because everything I think, everything that it drives me insane, honestly, if I am thinking about it, it's things that are so black and white. I hate that.

Valerie: 16:45

I think that's the whole unbound idea, because it's this other message that well, it's not valid unless you're professional, and unless you're full-time running a business, making a full career's worth of money from your creativity, then it's valid.

Mak: 17:04

Or unless you're suffering, your art is bad. Unless you're suffering, it's not like you can be having a really good life where you are happy in your job that has nothing to do with creativity, but then you go home at night and you create things. Well, that doesn't count because you're not suffering for your art.

Valerie: 17:22

Or going after it being your career, then somehow, why are you doing it if you're not doing it for your career?

Mak: 17:29

So this is OK. So, and I can't, I think I've got this fact right, so nobody fact check me on this but I think it's the CEO of Chase Bank or JP Morgan. I think yeah, that's the same JP Morgan Chase. I want to say it's JP Morgan Chase, it's, but it's that that guy who knows what his salary is and all that stuff, and he's the head of the one, the biggest bank in the world, or one of the largest banks in the world. But on the weekends he's this like EMD DJ who's out in flip-flops and shorts spinning for like all generation z and whatever in the clubs and all this stuff, and they love this guy. But during the week he's in a suit running the biggest bank in the world and he's super creative. The music he's making that he's inventing, he's not just spinning it like he's writing tracks and all this is amazing. But that's, that's OK, it's one in the same, it's one of the same.

Valerie: 18:25

He needs that creative skill for his job Correct, and that's the point that we're trying to make here.

Mak: 18:32

Well, hold on, hold on. That seems very ambiguous what you just said. You have to explain that.

Valerie: 18:36

Yeah.

Mak: 18:37

Why does he need that for his job? To do well, Well.

Valerie: 18:40

Google. It was just Google that came out with the two top skills they have in their employees. What would you think that it would be? The two skills that are, like, indispensable, like they have to have these skills, it's creativity and empathy Makes total sense. So why, in one breath, are we taking the creatives and the artists and telling them you are bad at the thing that, literally you.

Mak: 19:13

Google once, google once because, artists are empathetic.

Valerie: 19:19

Oh my goodness, we're feelers, we are intuitive, we are.

Mak: 19:24

That's what it's. That's what it's all about. We are. That's what it's all about, and that's, and so and like the other thing that happens where artists and creatives get the shaft is okay, so they buy into the story and they're suffering for their art. Okay, they're living this low life but they're creating all the time because they can't make money and they can't be in business or whatever. But then they get discovered and they take off and they start and they're huge. And then what does everybody do? They sold out, they sold out. So you have to suffer. But if you stop suffering, then you're also a jerk. You're also. You can't make it. So like we put, listen to, like. This is the point here is and I don't want us to get too too, too heady, but you're kind of, you're kind of screwed either way, but it's still a box.

Valerie: 20:22

It's still a box. It's like the institutions that we have put in place. Box. It's like the institutions that we have put in place. And I think a lot of artists and creatives they see the institution and they're like that's the only way. Yeah, like I have to play the game of this institution, but meanwhile there's such a big world, there's so much opportunity that it might look differently.

Valerie: 20:45

And so it goes back to our point of your creative life can be fulfilling and life-giving and perfect for you without choosing these black and white narratives in order to make it valid. And I see this a lot too in our membership community and magic makers. We have doctors that are part of it and and so many people who have their professional jobs and their careers where they are professionals and they love it and they love being doctors. But they're like, look, this is something that fills me up and makes my life so much better and it has a ton. I can't emphasize enough the validity of that in and of itself for your own healing, for your own health, for the own way that you show up in the world, your wonder, your curiosity, your play, your joy, your delight, on and on and on, literally scientifically backed, that the arts and creativity heal us and that has such a weight to it in and of itself.

Valerie: 21:53

And it's not a either or it's a both and Like why can't somebody say this is a perfectly valuable, even if you're not getting paid for it, path? But for those who want to get paid for it and be in the professional sphere of a creative life, guess what you get to have that too, it gets to be a both, and both valuable, both valid, both legitimate. But we're illegitimizing both avenues and then giving people the lie that, on one hand, oh, not important, not worth it, you better get serious. And then, on the other hand, when they do quote unquote get serious which I hate, that that's a whole other thing. Then when they do get serious, they're being told but you're not good at it, get serious, make money from this, make it full time, but you suck. How do you?

Mak: 22:50

what do you do with that? And I want to. I want to go back to the point, too, about, like you were saying, we have doctors and stuff and magic makers, which is which is super cool, attorneys I mean people from all walks of life. And here's the thing, and this is what I want to be so freeing for you. I don't want you to ever come away from our podcast thinking that our whole goal is for everybody to make money being creative, or we would just be part of the problem. But our goal is to point out that creativity is more than likely the most rewarding, fulfilling, freeing response to the stress of your life. So if a doctor, let's say a doctor, is a brain surgeon, there they have a 20 hour surgery and they're so good at what they do, there's nothing wrong with coming home then and painting a watercolor where most people would say, oh, go get a massage, watch some Netflix or whatever. And again, nothing wrong with those things. We're not anti that stuff.

Mak: 23:46

But what most people don't want to try is the creative piece, because somewhere along the line they were told not to, or it seems frivolous and it seems stupid or childish. It's often labeled as childish, which we hate, because when we were all kids, we were free thinkers and we didn't have all of the stress of worrying about what other people think of us and all this stuff. And we just created and we created and we created. Every child in kindergarten is a creative genius. What happens to those people? So the point is, like your response to what's going on in your life. You can have that balance. You can have a really great career and then go paint on the weekends or at night, or you can love painting so much at night that you start saying you know what I'm going to make money doing this. And it doesn't have to be your career, it can just be something fun that you make money doing. There are so many different ways, but the point is you have to create and your creativity makes you perfect for running a business.

Valerie: 24:51

Yes, that is what we want everybody to take away from this that you have agency and choice here. How often are we taught this analogy too, where it's like it's the luck of the draw and that person's so lucky and almost like the chosen few that you know a magic wand came down and got to them. But you get to create again why creativity is so important, like your greatest creative accomplishment ever is going to be your own life. And you get to have agency here. You get to choose and say I want to employ these business skills. What if I am not bad at this? What if I've just believed the lie that I'm artistic? Therefore I should be bad at it? But what if you would be brave enough to say what if not? What if I am good at this? And then you get to choose your path and try different things.

Mak: 25:52

Some of the most creative people I know own businesses and are wildly, wildly successful because they look at solving problems. And when you start a business there's hundreds of problems that you have to solve. It's just constant problem solving. But according to Rory Sutherland, the opposite of a good idea is a good idea. And so often the left brain says there's only one answer to a solution. But that's not true. There's only one answer to a problem, there's only one solution to a problem, but that's not true. There's actually thousands of possible ways to solve a problem.

Mak: 26:29

But a right brain thinker will be thinking about all kinds of creative ways to solve a problem. And what happens? If we all just believe what the left brain said all the time? Everything would be sterile in the same. But if you take an engineer solving a problem and you gave that same problem to Walt Disney, I'm sure that Walt Disney's solution would be very exciting. And it's not that the engineer's solution is wrong, and it's not that Walt Disney's solution is wrong, it's that you're going to get such vast differences. But we've been trained as a society for so long saying well, we got to take the engineer's approach because it's a system, it's a framework, it's this or that, but but so.

Mak: 27:15

So the point is, business is nothing more than creative problem solving from day one. That's it. You're creative, whether you're painting or you're writing a song, you're preparing a meal, I don't care what it is, you are just solving one problem after another, after another after another, to get your art out there, and that's all a business is. It's the same exact thing. So if you are creative and your mind is scattered because you're creative and you're constantly thinking of all kinds of things, great. That's what Google says. We want creative people because it's the creative people who will come up with the creative solutions. Right, and Google hires thousands of engineers. But what do they want? They want creative people and engineers can be creative too, but they thousands of engineers. But what do they want? They want creative people and engineers can be creative too, but they want creative engineers. It's that linear thinking that has really driven this narrative behind artists and creativity and business into the wrong mountain.

Valerie: 28:19

Business is not that complicated. It's actually not that hard it. Business is not that complicated.

Mak: 28:23

It's actually not that hard.

Valerie: 28:24

It really is not that complicated. It is solving that. It's accepting money in exchange of value. Literally, that is what we are doing. We are taking our money, we're exchanging it for things that we deem to be valuable and make our lives better. And we can think about art in that way because we hear the word solving a problem, and solving a problem can mean making somebody's life better, where they were in one place and feeling one way, and then they experienced a piece of art and it changed them. Therefore, they are exchanging value for that piece of art and we really overcomplicate it.

Valerie: 29:10

And yes, of course, when we get into thinking about taxes, corporations and when a business grows and all of these things, yes, sure, are there things to learn, is there a learning curve? Are there things that feel uncomfortable, that you don't know, that you have to figure out and learn and understand? Yes, of course, but at the very fundamental part of it we stop ourselves from even trying, because we think about this like overly complex workings of, like a major corporation, without realizing that you can get started at this very basic, fundamental level. I mean, think about a yard sale or I mean that is business and we can write that off and say, oh, that's not for real, whatever, but it is. That is what is. That's what it is. We overcomplicate things and then it stops us from even trying or thinking that we have the chops for it.

Mak: 30:11

And the thing about all of that stuff look, none of it's hard, it really isn't.

Valerie: 30:21

That's another story. It is that it's hard. It really isn't. That's another story.

Mak: 30:22

It is that it's hard when you the people who have the most money tend to find ways to not pay taxes, but they're not cheating the system. They look at the tax code and they find creative ways to avoid paying taxes within the law. That's a form of creativity, and this is what. So my point here is this where we would go oh, I could never. You know, I could never do that. It's too big. Oh, I form a corporation. That's so hard, you need attorneys, it's scary. It's scary. No, you don't. You need 500 bucks and a computer, that's it.

Mak: 31:02

And if you learn to look at those types of things all the big, scary looking stuff about business as it's just a process and you're working your way through it and when a bump comes up, you have the freedom to sit there and creatively think through 20 different solutions. You don't have to take the most common path, you don't have to do what everybody else has done. You have the freedom to come up with something else, like I have a family member who has been offered lots of money for their property and I listened to the negotiations and I've been like well, have you thought about doing this, have you thought about doing this? And it's usually met with a negative no, no, no, we can't. That's not how it's done. Why not, like, talk to the people? It's a negotiation. There's no rule on how it has to play out. If you can creatively speak with someone on how to come up with a solution that works for everybody, then it's fine. It's all.

Mak: 32:04

The point here is it's all creativity, and you don't have to think about all of that stuff to get started. You literally can just go. You know what? I'm gonna change my perspective and I'm gonna tell myself no, I am creative, I can come up with. You probably come up with creative solutions to problems all the time. Look, people who don't have any money, starving artists who have to survive week to week or month to month and they're not sure how they're going to pay their rent or put food on the table. They come up with some pretty creative ways to pay rent and get food on the table, don't they? This is the same thing, but you're changing your mindset to. I don't have to be a starving artist. I can be a wealthy artist.

Valerie: 32:44

I can, I can or just asking what if? Yeah, exactly the question. What if?

Mak: 32:50

is the most powerful question, and it's but you're still solving, you're still sitting there and being creative. It's just the frame from which you're you're facing the problems.

Valerie: 33:00

It's the belief it really is coming from the belief and the story that if it's making money from my art then that has to mean that it's hard or scary or yucky and all of these things. Well, I want to give just my own story as an example. I come from an entrepreneurial family, which I'm very, very blessed to have had that example. My parents were small business owners. They've since retired, but I had that example and my dad would always instill in me that I have this agency, that I can do these things. I don't have to follow this path. He would always say to me you can be anything that you want to be. And growing up as a child, when you would ask me what do you want to be when you grow up, I would say a CEO. It was just my response I'm like a CEO. And I mean I believed it.

Valerie: 34:00

And even in elementary, elementary school some of my earliest elementary school memories even are of creating businesses that I would take to my school and I loved American Girl magazine and they had crafts in there and I would make the crafts at home. There was one in particular. It was like embroidery floss with a pencil, um, which is incredibly uh, not not very productive because, like, how do you sharpen it, like when you have embroidery floss on it? But still, it was super cute and I made these pencils and I took them to school and sold them at school and I had a few enterprises like that. I made a school newspaper that I brought in and that was in sixth grade and so I just in the marketing world, advertising world, before I accidentally fell into becoming a full-time artist. So I really did.

Valerie: 35:09

It was a hobby that I was making chalkboards, putting them on Etsy. It really took off and then as that business grew, I fell for the crap and I started saying stuff like that, stuff like that, like well, I have an artist's brain, I don't have a business brain. And even we've said this on the podcast before Mac. Our dynamic became that and I totally bought into this story where I was like no, I'm the artist and the creative. And if you would meet us or talk to us, they'll'll be like oh, it's so cool, you're in business together. And it's like, yes, I'm the artist side and he's the business side. And I was like this sweet like, and then it just dawned on me I'm like this is BS.

Mak: 35:57

Well, what's funny about that is I've always been very creative. I was creative my whole life, built successful businesses too, but I was always creating something new and exciting and fun and big and like constantly it didn't matter what I was. I was always had a new project and as soon as we started the, we went from the agency into that. I was like, oh, she's the creative one, I'm the business one.

Valerie: 36:23

Yeah, we like ourselves from the agency into that I I was like, oh, she's the creative one, I'm the business one. Yeah, we like put ourselves, we put ourselves in the boxes that we are now trying to break everybody out of, because that has been now, um, when we started lily eval in 2012. So we're going we're like 13 years now of doing this and being in these creative realms and and it's like we're trying to bust open the doors of the boxes that we ourselves experienced. And it was it just kind of dawned on me and honestly I'm going to say, not that long ago really, in the grand scheme of things, I carried this story for years and years and years that I was not good. I was not a good business person. I questioned my decisions and you know what? It made me shrink, and it made you shrink too.

Mak: 37:08

Yeah, I, I, I went the other way. And it's funny cause I just had a call with a, with a really good friend from back in Pittsburgh this week. We were on zoom together. We spent an hour just catching up and about 40 minutes into the call he said so I know you, you guys, are doing all this stuff. He goes, but what are you specifically doing for your creative outlet right now? And he called me out and I was like, well, I have a couple things cooking, but I'm not really doing. And he's like, when are you going to start? You need a creative outlet because I have bought into the same, I've bought into the same idea and it's taken me time. Here I am on the podcast lecturing people, but at the same time I'm just as I'm as much guilty of it as anybody else where I was like, no, I'm the, I'm the business person and I just don't really enjoy being a business person a whole lot, but I'm pretty good at it because I'm creative.

Valerie: 38:06

But that's another story, that it's hard, Like even now I'm going to like call you out here that that's another story. That business is hard but it's like shifting that mindset of like what if it does get to be creative? What if it like yeah, we're not going to enjoy anything 100%. But I think the part that makes it hard and why you're saying that so I'm not fully calling you out, but I think what makes it hard is the box, when you're looking at it from the perspective of businesses over here in the box.

Mak: 38:37

Well, and that's where I was. You're calling me out, but you're also making the point I was about to make Is that I love being in business for myself. I don't love business all the time, but what I love is creative problem solving, and that's what it has become become and what we have successfully done. What you and I have successfully done over the last, say, two years, two and a half years, is we built a business that we really enjoy because we stopped following all of the rules of business. We 100 stepped outside of the box, stepped outside of the lanes and we said no, no, making money can be easy, making money can be fun. Having a business isn't a drag. Having a business is fun. And how can we be the most creative we possibly can and have a business at the same time? And we're doing it.

Valerie: 39:38

And we, like you said, broke down those stories of oh, I'm not good at business, and you almost have to remind yourself and so much of what I do too with those who I work with in creativity that it often gets you to almost an unbecoming of who you are, not to remember who you really are, because those childhood versions of us actually are pretty cool, awesome little people that are still you. And so for me it was this unbecoming of wait a second. I was the little girl saying I wanted to be a CEO and I had an enterprise going in my elementary school and now I've overcomplicated it because I bought into all of the lies. So it's reminding. No, it's a both. And Artist and business person is not mutually exclusive. Creative and business acumen or business prowess is not mutually exclusive. It's a both.

Mak: 40:45

and and here's something Do you know what gives you business prowess? Honestly, failing, failure and time. There's people who start and they're lucky, they land in the right spot at the right time and they have a hit right away, and that's fine. But even those people fail eventually. Yeah, there is no person who's just like a born and naturally good business person. It's something learned and it is the experience that gives you the edge. So, in order for you to become it, you're going to start and you're going to be terrible. Let's use this creative.

Valerie: 41:25

But that's how you start a new medium or anything Exactly.

Mak: 41:27

That's exactly what I would say. Let's use this example If you love to paint, the very first painting you painted was probably awful. If you're a songwriter, your first 10 songs were probably bad. Actually, your first hundred were probably bad. Anything you do the first time you ever cook a meal, it's bad.

Mak: 41:43

Even if you're using a cookbook more than likely if you're having company using cookbook, you do, or you do a run through because you're going to mess something up. It's the, it's the repetition that makes you good. Same thing if you're in sports, I don't care. Like how many balls did tiger woods hit before he made the tour? I mean hundreds of thousands. This is the same thing. Business acumen is not assigned to someone because of anything other than experience, and so if you're creative, you can't. You don't tell yourself I'm going to be bad at business. Yes, you're going to be bad at business when you first start because you have no experience but not because you're an artist, but not because you're an artist and that's why having well, and and that's why finding a mentor or having a coach accelerates the process.

Mak: 42:33

It really accelerates the process. That's why people work with us in varying degrees, and that's part of what we do. But even if you don't want to work with a mentor or a coach, you take the time and you go. I'm just going to be bad at this for a while. And suddenly one day you'll do something and you'll go wait a minute. That was actually pretty good. That was actually pretty good. And then all of a sudden you go. You know what? I'm not so bad at this business thing. But if the whole time you're messing up, you're telling yourself I'm bad at this, well then you're going to stay bad at it. But the people who are in professional sports, they really want it. When they're bad at it, they get up and they do it again. They get up and they do it again. They get up and they do it again. They know what the outcome is going to be. Business is the same thing.

Valerie: 43:17

So let's, let's change this cultural narrative, honestly, like it's just got to go.

Mak: 43:22

Yeah.

Valerie: 43:22

And if this is resonating with you, if you're thinking, oh my goodness, maybe I did just subconsciously buy into that because we hear it so often and just even asking the question, what if it's not true? Like, what would life look like for you if that wasn't true? Just simply ask that question. Let your brain do the rest, because your brain loves problem solving. That's the other thing I want to say. You are also wired for problem solving, and if you give your brain like a little puzzle, instead of just saying, oh I suck, I'm bad, blah, blah.

Valerie: 43:58

You know if you actually say what if it wasn't true? What if I am an artist and I could be a really killer business person?

Mak: 44:08

What if I'm an artist and I could be really great at marketing myself on social media? Person. What if I'm an artist and I could be really great at marketing myself on social media? Yes, what if I'm an artist and I could have a really great email list?

Valerie: 44:19

Yep.

Mak: 44:19

So many people are like oh, but I just can't, I just can't market myself, I don't know how to market myself. Of course you're. Then you're, you're going to be bad, you're gonna be bad, but you have to be bad to be good.

Valerie: 44:33

But even then marketing we won't get into that.

Mak: 44:37

No, that's another podcast, because that's like a whole other thing, but I was gonna say we're listening to the formulaic version of that as well.

Valerie: 44:45

Oh, you need this and da da, da, da da. What if you could just show up and be yourself and have your enthusiasm and your energy pull people in, and that's marketing. But you have to be willing to be seen and do it.

Mak: 45:01

You were just talking to a songwriter here in Nashville who is very talented, and what does she say to you?

Valerie: 45:09

I'm just trying to figure out what what radio. I'm just all I'm. I'm just trying to figure out what what radio.

Mak: 45:13

I'm just trying All I'm doing is right and trying to figure out what radio wants. That is such, that's such the wrong attitude, because you don't. She's not writing for herself, then. And that's one of my favorite Rick Rubin quotes. I love it, the probably my favorite no-transcript it.

Mak: 45:58

And it was so backwards and counterintuitive and everybody loved it. And it's because I stopped DJing for the audience and then, later on in life, I created a radio station for me. I didn't think about the audience at all. I created a radio station for me. I didn't think about the audience at all. I created a radio station that I wanted for myself, and a hundred million listeners later, everybody was calling me saying how did you do this? And the answer was I did it for me, I wasn't thinking about the audience, and so I want to tell you that radio today, all they think about is the audience, and so I want to tell you that radio today, all they think about is the audience.

Mak: 46:34

And so the people writing records to try to get on the radio now you're in like a double layer. They're she's trying to write songs that radio wants, and radio's too afraid to take chances on new songs because they have to test everything and they call people do you like this song? Do you not like this? Everyone's living in fear. The songs that are breaking out, the artists that are getting big on TikTok and all these other places. The gatekeepers are going away. Because these people are, they don't have to write for anybody but themselves. And the artists who really take off out of nowhere wildfire and the record labels are chasing them are the ones who are writing for themselves. They don't give a crap about the audience and, as a creative, that's a good place to begin. When you are solving a problem, when you want to start a business, think of a problem that you face every single day and solve it creatively, even if there's a thousand people already solving that problem look at Uber.

Mak: 47:32

It's your solution could speak to a hundred thousand people, and that's all you need have a hundred thousand people. Gave you $10 a year, what would your life look like? So like this is the point is stop thinking about the audience and everything else. Focus on you. What lights you up, what makes you happy? What problems do you want to solve, and things will begin.

Valerie: 47:55

Stop thinking about the audience and everything else. Focus on you. What lights you up, what makes you happy, what problems?

Mak: 47:58

do you want to solve and things will begin to click.

Valerie: 47:59

Limiting beliefs, you guys, it's so crazy. It's the limiting beliefs. And just what if? What if things aren't happening the way that you want them to and it's as a result of the limiting belief, but yet we believe that things aren't happening the way we want them to. And it's as a result of the limiting belief, but yet we believe that things aren't happening the way we want them to. Therefore, we're holding on to the limiting belief. But what if the limiting belief has to go first?

Valerie: 48:17

yes, what if that's the part that has to go first not.

Mak: 48:20

What if let's just say it has to go first the?

Valerie: 48:22

story is going to change everything. The beliefs that you hold are going to change the behavior. That's just how it is. So we we hope that this has opened up that belief a little bit more. That if you are an artist, you are creative. Guess what you get to have a life that you want. There is not a linear path. You get to have agency, you have choice, you have ways that you can do things differently, and being a creative makes you perfectly suited to do that and we weren't gonna.

Mak: 48:53

We weren't gonna do this, but I'm I'm calling an audible here. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give everyone a little pitch. We have something coming in, magic makers. If this is resonating with you and you're saying, yeah, I, I get all this. We have a program coming and we're gonna be announcing it really really soon. This podcast is coming out mid-May. It's really really soon.

Mak: 49:17

We're going to have a group situation where you can overcome these limiting beliefs and live a creative life like you have never thought possible. We've been testing this for about five months with a small, intimate group and are having stellar results that we're super stoked about, and so we're going to take this to a bigger group. And so make sure you pay attention. Go sign up at ValerieMcKeoncom slash email, I think it is. You could put your email address in somewhere. Just go on her, go on Val's website and put your email address in. You'll hear about it.

Mak: 49:49

And then I also do private one-on-one creativity and business coaching, and I have two or three open slots right now and I'm getting life-changing results for my clients very quickly. They compress years into weeks, and so if this is something that you've been looking at or you're kind of there, but you know you could do more. We have options for you, and so reach out to me, dm me on Instagram or find me. I'm out there Because we want to help you. We want to help you with this stuff Because you are totally capable of living that life that you want, whether you want to make tons of money or you just want to find relief.

Valerie: 50:29

A creative life is the path.

Mak: 50:31

It is.

Valerie: 50:32

And that is what we support. We want to see everybody just leaning into their own magic and unlocking that, getting rid of the limiting beliefs and these ways of thinking and these cultural distinctions that have been put on creativity. Creativity is meant to be unbound. It's meant to be messy and exploratory and all of those things. So we want to be your cheerleaders on that path and whatever that may look like. So we hope this episode was helpful. If so, could you do us a big favor and leave us a review and let us know it really, really helps us.

Valerie: 51:14

It helps other people who could use this message like we literally feel, um, so called to talk about these things that we get passionate about it and changing cultural messages around what it means to be an artist and a creative and how it fits with business and the world and our humanity and all of these things. It's something we feel called to do. We want as many creatives who are suffering and living under the weight of these beliefs that aren't theirs to carry to be able to find this podcast, and that would really help.

Mak: 51:47

So leave us a review that helps the algorithm juice and also hit the subscribe button. That's another big thing for the episode to a friend who you think might benefit from it, and thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

Valerie: 51:59

Bye.