Valerie: 0:07

welcome back to the unbound creative podcast. We are so excited to be back with you.

Valerie: 0:13

I'm valerie I'm mac and here we believe that you have magic within you. Why are we doing this? Why are we talking about these things and creativity? It is because we believe that you have magic within you. That is your own individual brand of magic and when you unlock it, when you take that out of the box, that maybe and there are all different kinds of boxes we can put our own selves in boxes, we can have boxes that other people have put on us or ways that we believe we need to stay in the box, but when we can open that out and live unbound, we believe it will change your life and also change the world. Creativity changes the world and we need the magic that you offer.

Mak: 1:05

And you know, so often people have forgotten about this part of themselves or they put it away 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 50 years ago. And now you are living every day in a way that doesn't feel lit up or magical, or you're just kind of in the mundane routine.

Mak: 1:27

The should territory I should be doing all of and, and so you're left going well, what is there? What is there for me? What is you know? You just feel like something is missing and you can't quite put your finger on it. We believe that this is the answer for every single human being is reconnecting with that inner, magical part of yourself.

Valerie: 1:50

What often stops us? Well, there are many things, but one of the big things that stops us from moving forward, when we start to tap into that part of us and we're feeling that spark and that lit up and the thing we're going to talk about, that stops so much of us, is overthinking. And tell us, dm us, if you experience this I think it's everybody. Where we have a spark, that happens or we have an idea, something just kind of lands in your brain in this way that you can't even explain it. You just are like, oh, that was an interesting passing thought, I should maybe explore this. Or we have that idea that comes to us that seems like it was out of nowhere, that little bit of inspiration that's often a whisper, by the way. And then we get really excited. And then what happens? We do research. We're like, ok, well, I can't just start, let me figure this out. And we go into our left brain and we're like let's logic this out and figure this out.

Mak: 3:04

And a lot of times that research is done without doing physical research. You sit there and, in your mind, within an instant of having a great idea or something that feels good, you immediately come up with 15 reasons why it won't work. Or it will be too hard, or you don't have the skills, or you don't have the connections, or you don't have the finances to do it. You're puncturing holes in this beautiful idea 10 seconds after it's been born.

Valerie: 3:31

That is so true. Yeah, the outward research. But then internally, how we're just automatically like oh yeah, nope, that won't work for all of these reasons and we can always come up with reasons why things won't work- and I was just with a friend the other day who said oh yeah, I'm a, I'm a hole puncher.

Mak: 3:51

They actually call themselves a hole puncher. And I said what's a hole puncher? Well, when someone has a really great idea, they usually don't come to me because I'm the one who sits there and goes well, here are all the reasons why it won't work. And they were like proud of this and I was like I feel bad for you because that's that's going to keep you from ever doing anything big and bold and beautiful.

Valerie: 4:15

And then there is the actual research. So if you have a really good idea maybe a business you want to start, or maybe art that you want to start making, or you had want to start making, or you had an idea for something what is our first inclination? We go let me see what everybody else is doing. So then you go on instagram or you go online and you have this beautiful idea.

Valerie: 4:36

And then you see all of these people who are doing it, and they're doing it a million times better that you could ever do it. That's what you tell yourself. That's not what's true, but you are at the very, very beginning. You have done nothing at this stage other than have the idea. So, of course, when you look at other people who are doing it, it's going to feel like, oh my goodness, they're doing it so much better than me because you're not. You're not doing it. It's at the very beginning. Of course, they are farther along.

Mak: 5:07

And I am, I am. I am as bad at this as anybody else, because I have millions of ideas and, of course, the first thing I do is I go well, does somebody have this handle on Instagram? Is somebody doing this? And somebody, and I go and I see and I immediately get defeated. I go oh wow, they're doing such a good job. I can never compete with that. They already have it figured out, they already have all the customers. They're five years ahead of me. Guess what? The truth is? You, you both can exist. There could be 15 people with the same idea, and all those people can exist. That's why Lowe's and Home Depot are across the street from each other and Ace is down the road. It all works. They're all doing the same thing, but in their own way, and that's your story too. So that comparison thing that's also one of the big tricky ones.

Valerie: 5:57

We're never saying anything, that we ourselves are not working through, employing and telling ourselves. But it is, it's so true, that feeling where you were lit up, you had the spark, you're ready to go, and then it's just like someone lets the air out of the balloon once we get into these spirals of overthinking. And what is overthinking? We all do it, but let's just call a spade a spade. Overthinking is rooted in fear. It is fear masquerading as being prepared. So we think we have to do all these things and we're just being prepared, but really what it is is fear telling us that we have to have this type of over preparation.

Mak: 6:45

It's the hole puncher. The hole puncher is just afraid. And that's what we do. We say, ok, well, before I can move anything forward, I have to do all of these things. I got to get all my ducks in a row, I got to have everything perfect and then I can take the first step. Listen, no great company that was ever built, no great television show that was ever made, movie that was made, song that was written or whatever, started from someone having all the things prepared and then took the first step. All of those things, all the things we love, came from a single thought, that somebody acted on with excitement and motivation in the moment and said I'll figure it out, I just got to move on it.

Valerie: 7:30

You know what To think about that. I mean any billion dollar idea that has ever existed. Where did that come from? It came from a singular thought. It came from somebody's individual spark saying I wonder what would happen if? And then, moving from there, and even when a plan is laid out so-called perfectly, how often in your life do things go to plan, even in small ways, like, isn't it often, when you are holding on so tightly to how something must go, you end up being miserable? I think about family functions or events, and, yes, we want everything to be just so and we plan it all out, but oftentimes things do not go to plan and so, if we are so rigid in that, we end up having a bad time. But often it's the times that were the spontaneous things just even in our lives the vacations, the restaurant that was closed so that you went somewhere down the street and then you ended up having this great day those are the memories that we often talk about.

Mak: 8:40

I'm reminded of the time when you were trying to create the perfect fall day.

Valerie: 8:47

Oh, my goodness With our daughter, vienna.

Mak: 8:49

This was before Charlie was born and you had all this vision and you had us all in our sweaters and it was 80 degrees outside in October and we went to the pumpkin patch and Vienna was hot and I was hot and she was grumpy and hungry and nothing was going right and you and I ended up fighting and everybody was mad and it was awful and it was all because you had this vision of this beautiful, crisp day and everybody was doing pumpkins and cider. Oh, it was so lovely. And what I honestly think was going on in that moment, you were trying to recreate what happened earlier, on its own, spontaneously, the year before, because the year before we had this incredible experience at the pumpkin patch and it was so much fun and it was quintessential fall. And I think you tried to recreate it the next year and it just didn't work.

Valerie: 9:42

It's all it's, it's all the expectations of it and going in with like it has to go this way.

Mak: 9:48

And.

Valerie: 9:48

I want. I had to get a certain picture that I wanted, but you know what's funny about that, we ended up what? A week or so later, spontaneously finding a new farm that we had never heard of and we were just like, oh okay, let's just go check it out. And we ended up having this most beautiful afternoon at a place that we weren't even expecting to stop at. We didn't even know it was there.

Mak: 10:11

It was 10 times better, frankly, yeah we really loved it.

Valerie: 10:14

The crowds were so much less.

Valerie: 10:16

We had this amazing experience. So you can probably think of times in your life that it was that way, and when you hold on so tightly to the plan, it blinds you to seeing even what is out there. But in creative situations, again, the fear is masquerading as being prepared and we think that we have to have all of the ducks in the row. But even when you do, sometimes that can even be a detriment at times. So the other thing that we do, with the fear masquerading as being prepared, is that we're seeking validation over trusting ourselves. This is another part of the overthinking, because we're trying to think about well, everybody else is doing it this way and we want to almost insulate ourselves to know that we are doing it right and seeking that validation.

Valerie: 11:08

Here's what we tend to not trust is that spark, that delight that you felt, that rush of joy, that rush of aliveness. When you have that come in, you're like, oh, I would love to do that, that sounds so much fun and you're on this high of inspiration and energy from the idea. Why don't we trust that inspiration and energy from the idea? Why don't we trust that? Because then we sink ourselves down into okay, well, let me overthink this to death and I need to be the hole puncher and find all of the other people doing it, because I'm trying to insulate myself and protect myself. Why don't we trust the delight and the joy? And what we want to tell you is that's the part you get to trust. You get to lean into that and sink your teeth into why that was so amazing.

Mak: 12:04

One of my very first businesses that really worked was an online radio company, and it was totally by mistake, like I didn't expect it to do what it did, and it went on to be massively huge, one of the largest actually in history. And do you know what that was? If I had started that with research and following all the rules of radio and listening to everything that every person that I'd ever worked with in radio said this works, this doesn't work, you can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this, you can do this, you can't do this, it never would have happened. But what I did is I set out to create literally a radio station that I wanted to listen to. It was for me, it was what excited me. I did everything about that radio station. That was me and I loved every second of it. I loved creating it, I loved listening to it, I loved programming it, I loved being on the air on it and boom, it took off like wildfire, like nothing I had ever experienced in my life.

Mak: 13:13

I wasn't focused or thinking about money. I wasn't thinking about anything other than what lights me up, what makes me feel good, and that is what works. It's like you lean into that creative moment. You lean into that thing that is drawing you in and you like you can't do anything else. But then lean into that thing that is drawing you in and you like you can't do anything else. But then lean into that and when you get to that place, then you don't poke the holes anymore. And that's the goal is, when you doing it from the heart, the holes don't matter, because you will actually figure out ways to plug the holes or go around the holes or keep the holes from from appearing. To begin with, and most of the time the holes are things that people invented anyway. That aren't real or true. They're just things that we attach to what we're doing in fear of success.

Valerie: 14:02

Essentially, yeah, I don't feel like we're taught that it's okay to trust the feelings of fun and play and delight. That almost seems like the childish part that we hear okay, well, it's time to grow up now. It's time to get serious.

Mak: 14:19

You're an adult.

Valerie: 14:20

You're in the real world now. This has to be hard, but yet the things that lit us up as children, the things that gave us delight and play and fun, we are still those people and that is that one-way ticket to our magic when we tap into those parts. But yet we seem to not trust those things. When we get that kind of excited, giddy butterflies in the stomach, feeling we almost seek out the validation of that instead of just letting that sink in and letting ourselves flow into that when we're kids.

Mak: 14:56

That's the truest forms of who we are like before the world gets to us right and, as adults, when we start to feel like a kid, we shut ourselves down we think that's somehow bad.

Valerie: 15:07

Right, this is so juvenile.

Mak: 15:09

Are you telling me that when will ferrell was filming elf, that he didn't feel like what kid wouldn't want to? To have done that? Been that character you? He was tapping into this joy that that's within him when he was filming that and letting it out. And now we love it. And why do we love it? Because it reminds us of how we felt when we were kids. And that's the thing, and that's what you've got to watch. The overthinking comes in when you say, oh no, this is juvenile. I'm an adult. I am not allowed to have fun or be full of joy from something that makes me feel like a kid.

Valerie: 15:48

All right, we're going to get super practical with you on this episode, because we have five ways that you can interrupt this overthinking pattern and then actually move forward with these sparks instead of smothering them down, instead of coming up with a million and one ways why it won't work, why everybody's doing it better. We want to help you stop and interrupt this pattern. So the first thing is notice, and that's really the first thing for any change that you want to make in your life. It's not about, you know, shoving something aside or beating something down or I got to change, and why am I like this and beating yourself up? No, no, no. First step is always to notice.

Mak: 16:39

Just be aware, that's it. When the thought starts to come in, be aware of it and then gently take a breath, pause and say okay, I recognize the thought, I'm not going to be mad at myself for it, let it go and move on gently.

Valerie: 16:55

And when we can understand because we're becoming more conscious when we can understand that so much of it is fear talking so much of it is just we're trying to the primal part of us, trying to keep us safe from creativity which seems inherently scary to it.

Valerie: 17:12

When you start to recognize that you will not let your overthinking kind of get away with those sneaky ways of being, and you'll start to be able to talk to yourself more gently when you notice it. So if you find yourself going down a rabbit hole on Instagram and you're researching all of these things or you're looking at other people's artwork going I could never do it, why should I even pick up the brush? Because it's never going to look like this and you can start to sense and just notice what you're doing. And then there's a part of you that can look at that as an onlooker and say, oh, this is fear, onlooker. And say, oh, this is fear, I'm trying to protect myself. I was all giddy about this. And now this is just my familiar pattern stepping in and instead of just letting your subconscious take over and do that, you're just noticing it and becoming aware when you do it.

Mak: 18:10

I did this exact thing this morning. We were in the car. I had this, really what I thought was a brilliant flash of an idea for a business, and I even had I said to you I was like text me this phrase and so I could make a note about it.

Valerie: 18:22

I was wondering what was that?

Mak: 18:25

I didn't even. I haven't even told you what the idea is yet, but what happened was the next five minutes. All I did was come up with all the reasons. Okay, it's fine. Now think about what happens if it would work. Think about all the cool things that you could do with this. It's really easy to do.

Valerie: 18:46

So if you're going into an overthinking spiral, just notice it, become aware. Step two take one tiny, imperfect action. So, before the mind spirals out, we're going to just take one small step. So maybe that means taking out your phone and doing a voice memo. Just get it out there. Or maybe open up your journal and really just get it all out. Get the idea out, brainstorm it out, write the first paragraph. If you have an idea for a book maybe you want to write a children's book Maybe you just take out a Google Doc and start making an outline Just take that one step to move you forward.

Mak: 19:36

It really depends on how you process the best. If you are an internal processor, I would recommend doing the journaling, because that really helps you get it and it doesn't have to be like you have you. You literally start. You can just get all of your ideas out on paper. If you're an external processor, do the voice note, send yourself a voxer and just talk for five or six minutes and get all of your ideas out before the hole puncher steps in. That's the key.

Valerie: 20:05

That's going to be the new thing now, I know.

Mak: 20:07

I'm going to have to thank this person for calling themselves but. But that's going to be. The key is, do it before you start punching holes in it. When you have that moment of spark and inspiration, that's when you want to just get that out as quickly as you can.

Valerie: 20:19

Yep, you want to move before your brain has time to build a case against you. Just move, do something, take one piece of tiny action and the thing is, clarity is built in the doing. We don't have it all figured out, and that's the other thing that we don't even. I don't even have this on the list. But when we think then about the end game and we think like, okay, say it was a children's book, you had this spark in my idea. What we'll tend to do then is fast forward to the end and it seems so daunting, like it's this huge masterpiece, and you're like, well, I would have to talk to these people and how would I even get published? And then what is the story? And if I do this, and how would I get the printing done, and would it go on Amazon and all of a sudden you had the idea, and then you're thinking about things that would happen way, way, way, way, way down the line.

Valerie: 21:13

And then it debilitates you because it's this huge chunk and I hate this phrase. I can't even believe that I'm using this as the example but how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time? That's what we need to remember. Get into that first messy, imperfect action. Remind yourself that this is how it's built.

Mak: 21:37

You're going to figure out Amazon later down the road. It's funny because in our current group coaching program it's funny because in our current group coaching program, you know, we're helping artists learn how to sell, but from a lit up and inspired place and not all the creepy things. And it's so funny because one of the one of the first questions we got when, when we kind of opened up the floor, was it was like well, how do I deal with, how do I deal with copyright, how do I deal with taxes, how do I deal with? And I was like OK, those are all legitimate questions and I love that your mind is there.

Mak: 22:08

But have you sold anything? And he says, well, no, I haven't sold anything yet. I've only sold a few things. Okay, great, let's focus on the fun of creating and selling, because Uncle Sam's not coming after you yet. You don't have to worry about copyright yet, we will get. You will get there. It's just take one inspired step after the other. So if you do drown yourself in all of these thoughts, that's one way that you will keep yourself stuck.

Valerie: 22:35

And this is part of the fear masquerading as being prepared, which is so normal. We this is part of let's normalize just how we are as humans. It is so natural then to want to skip 10 steps ahead. We want to know what's going to happen, we want to have that figured out, and that is so normal. But often that is going to debilitate us, that's going to keep us out of the moment, that's going to take us straight out of the delight that we felt. And that is point three Trust the feeling of delight, that initial excitement that you felt, that little jolt, that like tingly feeling, the butterflies in the stomach where you're just like. That is your creative compass, that is a true version of you, that is your magic coming through. We're not taught to trust that and we are telling you you get to trust that feeling.

Mak: 23:37

And that feeling is a good feeling. It's a feeling of joy, it's a feeling of purpose, and Gay Hendricks would say that without practice, you would immediately shift into something that would destroy that feeling, because we as humans have been taught that we can't feel good for long periods of time. Our actual normal state of feeling is actually bad, and good feelings are only allowed to happen in mere moments. So what you want to do when that happens and you start, you like, immediately start to think of something else, to bring your mood down or to bring your thought I recognize that again, being aware step one and then let it go and get back to the place where you, you are allowed to feel good. I just want to tell you that right now, you are allowed to feel good and that's what we want you to do. Every day, you are allowed to feel good.

Valerie: 24:27

I just want to tell you that right now, you are allowed to feel good, and that's what we want you to do Every day. You're allowed to feel good. There's a part of our brain that thinks that if we're feeling bad, that that's actually protecting us more. It's like protecting the other shoe from dropping. Brene Brown talks a lot about that, and Gay Hendricks. He calls it the upper limit problem.

Valerie: 24:43

And Brene Brown talks about how you might have a moment where you look at your child sleeping, which is one of the examples that she gives in her books I can't remember which one, but then she said instantly you might then be flooded with all of these feelings of fear, like what if something happens to them, and then you're running like a picture in your mind of all of this horrible stuff, right after you just had this really heart open moment filled with joy. And that's because joy is actually vulnerable, feeling that it is okay and it is safe to do that. So, instead of looking all outside for all of the reasons why that feeling of delight and joy is validated and worthy, instead of doing that, let that feeling be enough to keep and when you again can notice that, if you notice, oh, I just had a really good feeling and thought this, thought that felt really good, and now I'm thinking all of these bad things immediately after. Just notice that and see if you can practice bringing yourself back to the good feeling and that delight feeling, and see if you can just savor it a little bit more instead of immediately jumping to seek that permission or the validation. And again, you don't have to know where any of it is leading just yet. That feeling is enough.

Valerie: 26:17

So number four is lowering the stakes on purpose, and this is sort of tied to what we just piggybacked, that point where you don't have to have the whole thing figured out because that feels big and scary and debilitating. So, going back again to the children's book idea, if you're like, oh my goodness, is this going to get on the New York Times bestselling list, and who is this going to get on the New York Times bestselling list and who is this going to be in front of? And I'm going to talk to publishers, and all of a sudden that starts to feel like pressure and it's like, oh well, what if it's not that? And what am I going to do? And I have to have it all figured it out. But what if you instead would take this spark of an idea, or whatever it is, and your next move, or even about the idea itself? What if you would just think of it as it's going to be bad? Almost Almost like making the first pancake where the first one is always bad, it's always terrible.

Mak: 27:23

And you know what? Every time I make a recipe for the first time, I go in saying I'm probably going to screw this up. The thing is going to happen where I read the ingredients 25 times and then somehow I missed one and it screws the whole thing up. It's like I don't know how that works, but I think that happens to everybody.

Valerie: 27:43

I make bad recipes all the time.

Mak: 27:46

But if the first time you're making a recipe it doesn't turn out, you probably don't beat yourself up. You go okay, well, it was my first time trying it and literally you have to go in with that attitude because it will be more fun if you go in and say look, I'm just doing this for fun, I'm just trying to make it work.

Valerie: 28:02

And when that works is when you're not expecting your family and your spouse's parents to come over, and your mother-in-law is a gourmet chef, and so then you decide to try 10 new recipes and set a whole thing. That's pressure.

Mak: 28:27

Well, it would be like yeah, it's like you're doing Thanksgiving for the first time for your family and you've never cooked any of it before. You would not do that. Most like you would. I mean, I'm sure that's happened, but I personally would do a trial run the week before. I honestly would, because and you know what you would too, and that's what this is just start and go. You know what. It's gonna be bad, it's gonna be messy, but got to get it out.

Valerie: 28:42

Or nobody even has to see this.

Mak: 28:44

No.

Valerie: 28:44

No one has to see this. I'm just going to play, I'm just going to dabble. It's okay if it doesn't see the light of day. Go in with that low stakes attitude.

Mak: 28:53

And also and I can't under underline this enough because you've decided to commit to this fun idea and you're going to try something new, it doesn't mean that that now defines you. You're not putting your flag in the sand. This is now who I am. I am a children's book author. No, you don't have to be a children's book author. If you're an accountant and you're deciding you want to write a children's book, that's fine. You're still an accountant, but you can write a children's book on the side. Don't let those pressures build up, because they'll keep you from moving forward.

Valerie: 29:25

I think that brings up a point of I think social media has done that to a lot of us where we feel like so much gets wrapped up into our identity and if we're trying this, then that what is that going to say? And that's let's make a note, because we should do a whole other podcast just on identity and separating what we do from who we are, because it is separate. Your identity is not going to be wrapped up in any single thing that you do, even your profession. That's still not your identity in any way. So we'll let's come back to that point, because our last one is decide that you're willing to be seen imperfectly. Just decide it.

Mak: 30:10

There is so much power in that, when you finally go, you know what. I'm just going to show up as me and I'm not going to be perfect and I don't have to prove anything. It is so freeing. Oh, the world opens up. Oh, my goodness, does life change.

Valerie: 30:26

Because creativity is going to demand messy, Creativity is going to demand vulnerable. So if you just make that decision, I decide to have the courage to be imperfect. I decide consciously to have the courage to move forward even if I'm scared.

Mak: 30:51

Let's talk about the global phenomenon of Wicked for a moment. When they were constructing the original Broadway show I forget how many years ago it was now 20 years ago, maybe 25, 30, something like that in San Francisco it went through so many drafts 2530, something like that in San Francisco. It went through so many drafts, so many revisions. Stephen Schwartz threw out so many songs. He was forced to keep songs he didn't want to keep. He was forced to throw out songs that he thought would be showstoppers. The writers wrote and rewrote sections. There were characters that never made it in and then were put in and back and forth and all this stuff. Do you know how messy that was, what a terribly messy process. And they went through it and it was grueling. It was not necessarily easy, but they all loved doing it. They loved being in the mess and look what it did. Look what the result of all of that messy work. They didn't all go in trying to create something perfect, they just went in giving of themselves. And now we have this global phenomenon.

Valerie: 31:53

So decide now that you're willing. You're willing to start small, you're willing to start messy, you're willing to be in process and in progress, not quite knowing and letting it develop, and take one foot in front of the other. Let it be imperfect Perfect is a myth anyway and all it will do is steal your joy in the whole entire process, because even when you are trying to be perfect, you're still going to make mistakes, you're still going to have missteps and things are going to just not go as planned. So to save you a lot of grief, let's just decide right now that I'm willing to do it imperfectly.

Mak: 32:39

And plus, if you work and overwork and overwork and overthink something to the point where you feel like it's perfect, the second you unleash it on the world, they're going to literally be tens of thousands of people who think it isn't perfect.

Valerie: 32:51

Because you could never please everybody.

Mak: 32:54

You're never, ever going to because, look you, you don't like everything you see and everything that people see that you do, they're not going to like. So as soon as you let go of that and you go, you know what? I'm just going to listen to my fans and not the critics, and that's really who you should listen to. Then it's like okay, I can be imperfect, because actually people want that, they want to see your imperfection because they relate to that, they want to be a part of that process. That's why we all like behind the scenes. Why do we all love bloopers and behind the scenes and all this stuff? It's because we watch and we experience these things and then we want to see all the ways they screwed up because that shows us that they are imperfect in making the art that we now love, and that's just a part of who we are. So, show up messy, be messy, it's okay, nobody cares, just be messy, it's freeing.

Valerie: 33:51

Yes, Courage, and having courage is not about being fearless, it's not about doing it perfectly, it's about being terrified and doing it anyway. It's moving anyway into that place. That just becomes real and raw. And that is, like you said, that is what people relate to in other people. That is what makes this whole human experience of creating something and putting it out there so powerful, because it comes from these real places. And again, this is the path. Nothing is ever born fully formed. We have a process and your art, your creativity, whatever it is that you are creating, is going to go through a period of gestation. That needs to happen and it's all part of it. And when you just decide to move anyway, even if you're scared, that is where the magic is going to live. So five steps to stopping this pattern of overthinking so that you can move forward. Tap into those sparks and those pieces of magic that you have within you.

Valerie: 35:12

It was one catch the fear early by noticing that it's fear, so that you can consciously move forward. Two take the tiny, imperfect actions, just the smallest steps you can think of. Take that first and just move before your brain has a chance to create a case against you. Three trust that feeling of delight. We're not taught to trust those feelings of joy and delight, but they are your internal compass. Four lower the stakes on purpose. The whole masterpiece isn't going to get built in one day. It's going to be messy, it's going to go step by step. So tell yourself this is the first pancake, you're just doing it messy. And five decide that you're willing to be seen imperfectly and you have the courage to do so and move forward anyway.

Mak: 36:04

Thank you so much for being with us today on the Unbound Creative Podcast. If you found this helpful, we would really appreciate it if you would go give us a five-star review and even write a review on Apple Podcasts. That would be a super big help and it also helps people like you find the podcast. The other thing is hitting that subscribe button and following that helps amplify everything that we're doing. We thank you so much for being here and we will see you next time.

Valerie: 36:28

See you next time. Bye.