Valerie: 0:09

Mac is here with his fancy headphones on, looking all very legit for our podcast today.

Mak: 0:15

Why are you digging on my?

Valerie: 0:16

headphones. No, it's great. You asked me if I wanted a pair of headphones and I don't like feel ready to for the whole get up yet.

Mak: 0:23

Well, it's so funny because I see like videos of people's podcasts and no one wears headphones and as a guy who's been in broadcasting for 30 years, it blows my mind. I can't imagine not hearing myself in my ears when I'm doing something like this.

Valerie: 0:39

Well, that's what's so funny. I'm here with a professional broadcaster, like the headphones, the whole get up and I don't know. I'll get the hang of it.

Mak: 0:49

You'll be fine, we'll get you the headphones.

Valerie: 0:52

We're so excited to be back with you guys. I'm Valerie McKeon. This is my husband, mac McKeon. This is the second episode of our new podcast, the Unbound Creative, which was formerly the Peaceful Creative, but we had just so much more we needed to get out.

Mak: 1:11

And first of all let me say I mean you put out this reel the other day promoting the podcast. We got a ton of great response from that. But just the number of downloads we had on the first episodes like through the roof, like one of the biggest episodes in the two year history so far. So if you listened and you tune in and I got some text messages, I, you know it's so. Thank you so much for listening and supporting because we're I, you if you can't tell we're like really stoked about this podcast, it's, it's feeling like we're a little unleashed.

Valerie: 1:45

Yes, which needed to happen. And you know we're enjoying it because we're recording this right now, after our girls have gone to bed, so we're normally so exhausted, just like ready for Frasier and lights out.

Mak: 2:02

Yeah.

Valerie: 2:02

But we're recording this like really excited. That's how you know we're into it.

Mak: 2:08

True, true, so so thank you so much for being here.

Valerie: 2:12

I think the unleashed feeling that we're feeling, like that freedom sense and unedited and just wanting to talk about this stuff, I think is how so many creatives feel. But we have all of this stuff that gets heaped on us from the very beginning, From school. We have right or wrong and we have this sense of you have to kind of bottle it up like don't be too much. Sense of you have to kind of bottle it up like don't be too much. And I think there are so many creatives who are resonating with this idea of being unbound and being unleashed and just being that, that fullest version of themselves, without apologizing.

Mak: 3:00

Well, I think it's true. I mean and I know we're focused on creatives here, but I think it's almost everybody. But here's a secret I think everybody is creative in one way or another, but somewhere along the line you were told you weren't, so you, you tamped it down. Thus why this? This unleashing in this somewhat rebellious feeling is as like coming to the surface, because we are told through all of our lives Don't do. It's basically like you're told what not to do. There are all these restrictions you like put in this prison of your life so that you can be.

Mak: 3:34

You've become a responsible adult a responsible adult, just become the perfect individual who doesn't make anybody mad and keeps themselves quiet and falls in line and follows the rules and does all this stuff. And if you look at the world all the people who have achieved all the great success they don't do any of those things.

Valerie: 4:00

And they got messy. That's the thing we're so afraid of. Messy and they got messy. That's the thing we're so afraid of. Messy we're so afraid of a little undone, possibly a little unhinged, and so we avoid that for the safety and no risk. But yet the lives that are lived out loud and lived unleashed, they somehow are able to be in the mess and actually enjoy the mess. Because it's in doing that, it's in unleashing themselves and being that expression of themselves, even though the journey is going to be messy, that feeling alone, of that open-hearted, like you're doing this creative work that you feel so called to do. I think that that drives you forward when you taste that. But it's a really kind of scary ledge to stand on.

Mak: 4:54

Well, the world has taught us to be outcome focused, and I think that is one of the biggest problems, because this all starts in school, when you're as little as first grade maybe. When you're taught, it's about getting all the answers right on the quiz or on the test, and so your whole life becomes outcome focused, and so it's ingrained in us to focus on the outcome instead of enjoying the process of learning, enjoying the process of getting there, and so the difference between what is accepted widely and where we're headed with this and our philosophy is we're like no focus on loving the building, loving the mess, loving the process. Don't even worry about the outcome. Steve Jobs and all these great leaders and thinkers they weren't obsessed with the outcome. They got obsessed with the process, and they loved the process.

Valerie: 5:58

They loved going to work every day, they loved creating every single day, because it was the process that they were in love with, not the end result you know what I'm even thinking in school, like definitely with tests and everything, it always is outcome focused and I do think it gives us a real fear, especially for those who are like model students, like me.

Mak: 6:20

That's not you no, I was a solid d student.

Valerie: 6:24

I mean, I was like totally total, like straight a student and, um, I do. I have fought that in my creative life because there are those perfectionist tendencies and there's that fear of you know I, I can't get it wrong, or that it's so black and white you know there's a right answer, you know there's a wrong answer, and so it feels debilitating to make a decision. But I've had to learn that making any decision is actually the right decision and I think that is so true in creativity and really even in life. It's like that stuck place is so much worse than doing a thing, even failing at a thing.

Mak: 7:14

Oh, definitely failing, Because you're moving forward.

Valerie: 7:18

It's all a flashlight, it's all crumbs on the path when you're moving. It's like being a jazz musician you can't play, even if you make a wrong note. What do they say? There are no wrong notes in jazz. It's like, even if you play an off note, well then you just respond to that off note, but you're moving, it's in motion.

Mak: 7:37

Well, that's why we we talk a lot about in some of the programs that we do. And then the coaching that I do is failing fast and iterating. Because people get decision fatigue because they sit and they worry so much about making the right decision and I'm saying look, make a hundred wrong decisions, because each wrong decision is going to be a little lesson that you can learn. And that's like. One of my favorite quotes of all time is Thomas Edison saying you know, I didn't fail a thousand times making a light bulb. I figured out 999 ways not to make a light bulb and that is so true that made him who he was.

Mak: 8:16

And there isn't a single person who has achieved any level of major success who didn't fail a hundred times, 500 times, a thousand times on their way up the ladder. The ones who achieve it and make it, especially in creativity, are the ones who embrace failure and just make the decision to move. They take action and they go in unabashedly, full-hearted, full-throated and say I'm going to give this my all and if it doesn't work, fine, I will learn that I will iterate and I will do it again and I will do it again. And when you learn to enjoy that process and that process is so much fun. That's when everything takes off. And that's what we've experienced in the businesses that we've built, the ones where we, when we started focusing on the outcome, trying to make money, trying to build success, whatever that's when everything always went south. But when we got lost in the process of creating and enjoying it, that's when we succeeded. It's like totally the opposite of everything that you're taught or seems natural to think.

Valerie: 9:22

A hundred percent. And that's the thing, I think, why we are so jazzed up because this feels rebellious. It feels actually rebellious to say no, I'm going to love my life today in the process, regardless of the outcome, living that full hearted, open hearted, like you you said, because that is actually the juice that we want, that without that, if all you're doing is putting it off, putting off feeling that way until an external circumstance happened, you're essentially just practicing feeling like crap every day and then the more you practice that, the more you're going to get. So some an outcome might happen and it's not even going to give you that feeling that you think you're going to get. It's kind of like, if you're not living that now in the process, it's actually not going to come. But we hold on so tightly to that because we are taught that and just culturally messaging wise. I'm even thinking back to school. It's like how, how much of it is is what do you want to be when you grow up and where do you want?

Valerie: 10:35

to go to college and da, da da. It's like it's never about the moment, ever. It's always about looking to what is that next step, what is that next milestone? Where are you going to go to school, what are you going to major in and how? This is just a side note. How kind of crazy is that to ask a 17, 18 year old like what do you want to do for the whole rest of your life?

Valerie: 10:57

where you want to be when you're 40 it's like it's like whoa, but we are so focused on that and so it is. It's like we put off doing the things we want to do or feeling the way that we want to feel, because we think that we need to wait for the permission or wait for the validation, especially, I think, when it comes to creative pursuits, because this is another act of rebellion, because this is another messaging. We hear all of these demeaning, belittling and sort of downplaying terms when it comes to creativity. It's like oh, your little hobby, oh, isn't that cute? Oh, a little, a little thing for you, a little side hustle. It's like it's, I feel, like just cultural messaging wise. It just feels very downplayed.

Valerie: 11:49

So we think that we need to wait for some form of legitimizing or something to make it quote unquote worth it. But why don't we ever ask the question it's your life, like what is worth your life? That you are living today, and instead of trying to live the dream in the future, why aren't we just trying to have a good day, a good, creatively lit up, filled up. You are in your element, having a good day. That needs to be the priority and that's the thing. Everybody always kicks the ball down the road and you are in your element, having a good day. That needs to be the priority.

Mak: 12:27

And that's the thing. Everybody always kicks the ball down the road, and what they do Now look, hear me out. There's nothing wrong with having a vision for the future. There's nothing wrong with having some goals for where you want to be. I actually think that's great. We all need that. You need something to look forward to in life, and that's fine.

Mak: 12:47

But there is a big difference between having a goal and then also committing your life to something, because that's what everybody tells you you should, based on what your parents did, what your friends think, how much money you think you need to make, and all that.

Mak: 13:05

That's not being true to yourself.

Mak: 13:07

And the other thing that you do when you do that is you kick your happiness down the road too, because what happens is you tie your own personal joy and happiness to achieving that thing, and that thing could be 10 years, 20 years, 30 years down the road, or it may never actually happen, because if you've lived life for any brief period of time, things change constantly, and so the trick is to learn to be happy right now, be joyous where you are in your space right now and live in to who you are and what lights you up right now.

Mak: 13:45

And so often people want to shut those lights out because, especially in creative pursuits, it's called frivolous or stupid or dumb, or because they're being judged or they're afraid that people will think that they're crazy, or whatever the case might be. So we lock ourselves into positions in our lives that are socially acceptable or accepted by our parents or accepted by our family, and we live that out and in the back of our minds we're left saying, well, what if? What if I had done this? What if I had done this? But we shut the creative pursuit down or the dream business or whatever it is that you always want to do, because that's not quote unquote reasonable thinking.

Valerie: 14:29

Yeah right, and this is something we can really even rabbit trail on and I know we'll talk a lot about this in upcoming episodes too but we are actually addicted to feeling bad. That is another part of it. There is an actual like bodily nervous system component here that has wired us in to feeling constantly bad this is science too, by the way.

Mak: 15:01

This is not like right conjecture or woo-woo thinking. That's the thing we are.

Valerie: 15:06

So tied in to these outcomes and kind of to untether ourselves, focus on what is my good day like, what am I creatively lit up about here and now, without needing anything to happen. But it is also untethering from the emotional addictions of feeling bad and feeling like crap. And that's a real passion of mine too, especially with artists, because there's this whole like suffering, struggling, like artist type of a thing, like a vibe going on.

Valerie: 16:04

You can only create if you're dying for your art, kind of thing it's just ridiculous but come on also so much of us, just generally, it's a really crazy phenomenon, but we are addicted to feeling bad and actually opening up to those feelings of joy and letting your creativity fuel you in those ways and delight at first can actually feel unsafe at a bodily level because we are addicted to the stress, because it almost signals a control there, like if you're feeling bad, somehow you're like controlling, controlling, and it's just a really crazy thing.

Valerie: 16:48

There's, like I said, there's a lot to dive in there, but there's definitely a nervous system component that we have to teach ourselves how to feel good, creating and in that moment because so many of us are just wired the other way to feel bad and I think brené brown talks about this as well how joy is actually one of the most vulnerable states you can be in, because how, how often are you having this like burst of joy and I know she uses the example of you are looking at your child sleeping and you're just like overcome with this immense joy, and then your brain immediately serves you up like a horrible, terrible thought and it's almost saying don't be too joyful, don't feel too good, because in that joy you are like setting yourself up for a crash or you're setting yourself up to feel really bad well, gay hendrix talks about this a lot in his book where he he calls them upper limit problems.

Mak: 17:58

but literally he studied this for years. Um, where it's his book is the uh, the big leap and it's a fantastic book, by the way. Put it on your list right now. But what he talks about is he noticed a pattern in his own life where every time he felt joy, his brain immediately hit him with a thought to pull him back into something fearful or something negative, and that is something that's been perpetuated for so long. And if you actually pay attention to that today in your life, if you have a little moment where you feel good maybe you're listening to a favorite song or you're sipping that your favorite drink or whatever and you get this little moment and you're feeling good or you're thinking about something that makes you happy and feel joy just notice and see if your brain starts to step in and say, ah, you can't feel, and we get caught in this cortisol drip. It's actually like our brain is like a drug store and it hits us with all these different chemicals.

Mak: 18:56

And so many people are addicted to cortisol, which is a brain chemical that actually it's the stress hormone. It's the stress hormone and it is a constant drip and they're saying it is addictive, as like hardcore drugs and sugar and things like that, and we become addicted to this never-ending drip of cortisol in our system and that causes stress and that causes weight gain and that causes inflammation, inflammation, and then that leads to health issues and all of this I mean this is this is an epidemic. If you google it or search, chat, gpt about it, you can read all about the cortisol problem that exists right now and that is as a result of years and years of being trained to not feel good. We're it's it's like. It's like we don't trust that emotion right and and and. So that's why there's so many books and so many things about this topic, because it actually takes work to feel good and be okay.

Mak: 19:59

Feeling good. It's like there is some rule that somebody made up that we're only allowed to feel good 10 or 15 percent of the time, and everything else in life has to be hard, everything has to be stressful. It's like you're not allowed to make money and be creative and feel ease at the same time. Your life is not allowed to be easy, it has to be hard. You have to follow these rules. Where did that come from?

Valerie: 20:23

Well, and look at anything in nature. You know anything in nature. Nothing holds itself apart from thriving. Everything that is meant to grow like wants to grow to the fullest extent possible. There is no animal that wants to hold itself back in these small stories, but we do.

Valerie: 20:47

We tell ourselves these stories and we don't trust the feelings almost of how good could this be, how good could my day-to-day be. But the thing is, when you can get there in that way of thinking, where your creativity is valid, you're leaning toward whatever is whispering to you, letting it be the delight for delight's sake, following those inklings of joy which are going to be whispers. You kind of have to search for those things above the shouting of the cortisol and the fear and all of that stuff. But when we follow that, life just opens up and it does become that getting into that flow. And when you get there you actually realize that that place is your superpower.

Valerie: 21:58

When you're there it's like, well, if we can finally set it down and set down the stories, and set down the right or wrong, the good, the bad, the shoulds, the have tos, and literally just say what would light me up today, what sounds the most fun, what is whispering to you and it might sound ridiculous, like I started taking ballet lessons. Okay, why did I do that? Because I was watching my daughter on stage, feeling jealous of her, and I'm like, ooh, I'm a 40-year-old woman feeling jealous of these kids. Maybe I should follow that.

Mak: 22:42

I was just going to say. If what we're saying right now is making you feel a little uncomfortable, or if what you're hearing right now, you're like, ah no, I don't know if I believe that here's what I need you to do, put a pin in that and think about it. If this is the idea the very idea that we're suggesting, that you should actually take time in your day to do something that feels good and makes you happy, if that makes you uncomfortable, if that doesn't prove the point, I don't know what will. So if this very idea of what we're suggesting right now is making you feel uncomfortable, chances are you're already caught in this mess.

Valerie: 23:18

And how often this is another point to prove it how often do we sabotage those things, like we know the things that are actually going to make us feel good, but what do we do instead? We doom scroll instead or watch that other episode of Netflix, when you know that you should be doing something else that's actually going to make you feel better. And we do this all the time, like we are in this, this mode of of kind of sabotaging ourselves, because we're used to being in those low places and again, to get us out of that, it's going to take some discomfort and that's a little bit of a paradox, I think, with this idea, because it's going to feel uncomfortable at first in order to get to a place that feels good and then you groove a new neural pathway in those ways of feeling good. But the thing is we don't prioritize this as a culture. We definitely aren't told to follow these whispers and things. We are much heavier leaning into the adult responsibilities and doing the safe things and the not risky things.

Valerie: 24:39

But yet, coming back to this idea of when you do follow those whispers and when we can open our hearts up to this way of being, open our hearts up to this way of being. You will literally open yourself up to magic and it's your own version of magic. And when you are there, it doesn't matter the strategy that's going to trump any kind of technique. It is going to be you, operating from that place, that's going to create things. And I think that that's kind of what you were saying, mac, in the beginning with the businesses that we've done, the endeavors that were truly the successful endeavors. It came from that place where we weren't trying, and isn't that so interesting? And that goes counter to everything you hear. You hear try really, really, really hard and you need to follow these steps and try hard, and then this happens. But in our lives, the most success has come actually when we weren't trying hard.

Mak: 25:50

And that's why I'm anti-hustle culture has come actually when we weren't trying hard. And that's why I'm anti-hustle culture, because the idea behind hustle culture is you sacrifice your mental health, you sacrifice your physical health, you sacrifice your relationships, you sacrifice all of this stuff For an outcome yes, for an outcome. And the people who have succeeded at hustle what they don't real. First of all, they fall in two categories. They're completely burned out, wasted at life. And, yeah, did they achieve some success and I've made millions of dollars, but you've wasted your life making those millions of dollars because you hustled and hustled. You don't have the relationships. That wasn't a life you were living. Or they fall into the other category, which is they loved what they were doing so much that the hustle wasn't actually work. That's the part that is somewhat hard to understand. It's like so easy. It's hard because if you absolutely love what you do, when I built my first company, I was the guy working 80 hours a week, 90 hours a week, but it didn't feel like it. I loved every second of it. So, by definition, was I hustling? Sure, but I wasn't sacrificing my relationships, I wasn't sacrificing my sleep, I wasn't sacrificing my mental abilities or my mental situation because I was so wrapped up in passion and joy with what I was doing and I was not outcome oriented With that company. I didn't set out to take over the world or anything, and it did. What I created became huge. It became one of the biggest online media companies at that time and I loved every second of it.

Mak: 27:53

But after it got big and investors and wizards of smart and all these people came in. They started saying, well, now that you're here, you have to do this and you have to do this, and you have to do this and you have to do this. And they put all these outcomes on me and everything began to fall apart and it started to feel like work, because I was no longer in the passion piece. I had moved out into this other piece where everybody else kind of resides were OK, now I'm working towards an outcome and and honestly, everything fell apart with that company after that happened and so that's like that's what I'm saying is is the mess, is the part that you have to enjoy, and you only get there by digging into what makes you passionate, what makes you happy and I see this all the time with the people that I coach in the businesses is.

Mak: 28:43

They come to me and they're frustrated because the business has kind of taken over their life and I'm like let's put the brakes on. Why did you start this to begin with? And we get back to the part they're passionate about and I'm like let's put the brakes on. Why did you start this to begin with? And we get back to the part they're passionate about. And then we reform the business around that and, amazingly, things start working and they take off, because now they're living in their passion again rather than being outcome oriented.

Valerie: 29:04

But, you know, I even want to speak to the word passion, though, because I think for a lot of people that becomes even stressful, like for somebody who feels like what even is my passion? Like I don't even know, I don't love something that much that I could see myself working that much or doing that much, like I don't, I don't even know, and to that I would say, okay, maybe you don't have like one solid passion. We hear those stories of people who are just like I love this and this is what I want to dedicate my creative life to. But I think we need to normalize this idea of being multi-passionate or in a period of curiosity and discovery and discovery. So I wouldn't even let this idea of passion and fire and it can literally whisper again, which it normally does, and then you just follow one whisper after the other.

Valerie: 30:05

And when it comes to those whispers and those curiosities, I think it's very easy to shove those aside, because they're not screaming at you, it's not a burning flame that's coming to get you, but you feel dead inside every day and find yourself in the same pattern of doom scroll, doing the things that aren't making you feel good, but then you're addicted to not feeling good because your brain is registering that is safe. You feel good but then you're addicted to not feeling good because your brain is registering that is safe and so we can easily talk ourselves out of following that whisper. But it is in following that whisper that you start to like crack open, you know, like crack open the rock a little bit here and so that from the outside again might look like what are they doing? Like I said about me trying ballet. But I've learned to follow those things and I've had many things that I've shared about that I've not shared about. I had a whole like earring thing that I was doing for a while.

Valerie: 31:11

And was that a waste? It's like I dumped money into that, I dumped time into that. I realized I actually don't like doing that. Is that a waste? No, not at all.

Mak: 31:21

And to your point, yeah, and I think you're good to get into passion, because I do think it can be misunderstood. Passion doesn't have to be burning desire 90 hours a week. That's one example of passion. But, as you're saying, like, I think a lot of people, even right now might be you that we're talking about the. You're like, okay, look, I get it, I'm. You know, maybe I'm not happy in this and I know I've got something else to offer, something else I'm gonna do, but I have no idea what that is. And it's one of the things you and I talk about all the time.

Mak: 31:53

People always say find your passion and go after it, but they don't ever tell you how to discover what your dream is. Because that's such a that's such an open topic see, and that feels like pressure yes doesn't it? It does, it goes back to it makes you actually feel like you're failing because you don't even know what you like to do yeah, right exactly and I have felt that as recently as three months ago.

Mak: 32:21

So I, I understand and and, but it's. It's actually very simple and it's what Val said, so I want to highlight it again. You might have multiple whispers, there might be a couple of different things in the back of your mind that you're like well, I've always wanted to try that and try this and see what this is. Do it all Nothing. You don't have to plant your flag anywhere. You don't have to announce to the world. This is my new thing. All you have to do is try everything that sounds interesting.

Mak: 32:52

A little bit, dip your toe in the water, try it and over time, a couple of things will probably begin not probably will begin to emerge and you'll start leaning into one or two of those things and then kind of take it from there and that's it. There is no big secret, there's no formula here. If there's, just if there are things you've been wanting to do, and even the more frivolous they sound or feel to you, I think the more you should lean into them, because when something feels frivolous or dumb, lean into them, because when something feels frivolous or dumb, that's probably been put on you by somebody else and you don't want to live your life based on what somebody else thinks or feels.

Valerie: 33:37

Right, and I just I feel like that is again this act of rebellion that we're talking about. Isn't it To follow those things? We're not taught to do that as adults. We're not taught to follow those curiosities. I feel like when we're kids, we're kind of like you know, maybe everybody has parents that were different, but I think we were fortunate, mac, you and I, where we were like oh, I'm kind of interested in this, and our parents helped us discover that encouraged that and we're very fortunate in that way.

Valerie: 34:13

But as adults, I think that goes away. We're not encouraged to do those things for the reasons that were stated. Oh, that's frivolous. Or should I spend that time, or should I spend that money? Yes, yes, you absolutely should, because often in our lives, especially if you feel dissatisfied, if you feel lost, it's almost like we're waiting for some big, grand thing to happen, and I don't really we'll be waiting forever for that.

Valerie: 34:42

It's going to be in these small movements, in tapping into your creativity in these ways that just are purely curious. It's just purely experimental curiosity. And then you notice, you notice how you are feeling. Are you pushing up against resistance? And that is how we kind of gain these clues to get closer and closer to this unbound version of you, this unleashed version of you who is not afraid to play and to try and be unapologetic about your own growth and your own discovery. And I believe, like we said, that everybody has that creative spark. We all want to make. We all want to make in different ways, but I think that is one of the ways that we just feel purposeful in life.

Valerie: 35:42

And how easy is it to write these things off? But we should not do that. This is actually quite important and to do that, to follow that, is such a deep act of self-love which is also rebellious. Also rebellious. To just have that deep self-love where you want to know yourself more, you're going to get information. There's really a win-win all around when you follow those whispers.

Valerie: 36:22

But we hope that this is helping you get over that initial hump of resistance which is going to be there, whether it is the addiction of your nervous system to feeling a certain way, whether it is getting over maybe cultural messaging or other voices.

Valerie: 36:40

But we're hoping that this is starting to open you up. And the other thing I want to say, too, is we sometimes feel like like if you are somebody who is not directly in the arts, maybe I would say I think it's easy to look at somebody in the arts and just like, feel like they are so creatively lit up and there's just like butterflies floating around them. But I feel like some of the people that I've come across that have been the most blocked are the ones in the arts, because that's a whole other can of worms about industry and how we're put on of, like what's good and what's bad and technique and all of this stuff, and we can. Actually the people who are in that world can be the most blocked creatively, and so I think this is really a human issue that we want to break everybody free from even from a business perspective, entrepreneurs and things like that we get lost in.

Mak: 38:11

We're not being judged by wizards of smart like in the artist world, like the teachers and things like that who are so blocked, but in the business world we tend to lean into this imposter syndrome, which I think is similar to that in a way, where we have been told unless you've gone to school for this thing and you have a marketing degree or an MBA or whatever, you can't go start this business because you're not smart enough or you don't have the experience. And the truth is, I actually think those things can hurt you. The truth is, I actually think those things can hurt you. If you have a ton of experience in a certain kind of business, you will carry all of the bad habits that come along with that business into whatever business you create, whereas if you are new to it and you are lit up with creative energy for it, you are going to make mistakes and you're going to try things that nobody else would be willing to try because their experience has taught them not to do it. However, your fresh perspective will actually give it a supercharge, will creatively override things that people wouldn't even be willing to try otherwise, which is really super cool. So you know, there is something to be said that you can be taught, quote, unquote the wrong things and carry that with you throughout your life.

Mak: 39:43

So if, from a business perspective for entrepreneurs, if you are, if you want to start something you've never started before and you have no experience, perfect You're. You are the ideal candidate to do it. You don't need any experience because you can learn. And again, I'm going to use that word passion. If you are passionate about solving a problem creatively, you will figure out how to do it and you will probably come up with 10 ways to do it that nobody else has ever thought of because you don't have years of experience in that thing.

Mak: 40:15

And it's just like you're not caught in the trap of thinking like everybody else in that industry. You're looking at it from a completely different perspective and boy is that a fantastic place to start from. It's kind of like being a disruptor, and that's an exciting place to be, because not only are you at the bottom you got to work your way up there's like no better place than the bottom because there's no pressure but you also have this incredible ability to make mistakes and learn, but do things differently and, in a way, nobody else has ever done it before what the world says it should be done this way. You can go. Well, now I'm going to do it this way.

Valerie: 40:54

Business is a creative endeavor. We put these you know these ideas of business and we're seeing like people in suits and stiff and it's like business. But what is business? It's solving problems for other people. It's it's bringing beauty to other people. It's bringing something to people that they want. And when we talk, even in the business realm like that, becomes creative, and this is another narrative that I feel like I just want to bust down.

Valerie: 41:27

We've just felt such rage, haven't we, in our conversations yeah, I think that's where we just like feel this rage of what people are told and we're like screaming at our phones, and so we just decided to scream into a microphone on a podcast.

Mak: 41:43

well, I I think we're being like everybody else. We're using the podcast as our own therapy, but that's okay.

Valerie: 41:49

But I just want to say okay, how many times have we heard oh, they're creative, but they need a business mind, or artists aren't good business people, and I'm going artists make the best business people, the ones who are in their creativity. They're willing to get messy and try things and they are coming into it, like you said, with that creative mind.

Mak: 42:18

So often the upper echelon of a business, like we think, business people are these, like I said, like MBAs, number crunchers, accountants, lawyers, things like this Okay, and those people tend to only want to solve a problem one way and that's it. It's black and white. They come up with a solution to a problem and they move on and they own and they only look at the problem from one point of view, whereas a creative person can look at a problem and come up with 15 different ways to solve the problem and is willing to try a bunch of them to find the best way to solve a problem. Creative people make great entrepreneurs, make great business owners, because unfortunately, like I said, the upper echelon is usually these one track mind kind of people and they don't want to look at anything creatively and creative solutions often save money and all this other stuff. But it's not that way.

Mak: 43:24

I right now, like AI is replacing the wrong people, like all these corporations out there are using AI to replace the creatives, but they should be using AI to replace the number crunchers. That's what it's good at. It's good at calculation. It's good at speeding up boring processes. Yeah, it can make an image, it can make music, it can. It can kind of think creatively, but it's not a person. So instead of trying to replace all the creatives with ai, we need to be replacing all the paper pushers with ai that's what it's great.

Valerie: 43:58

That's a whole other episode we should do about ai, because we have a lot to say about that well, there's and there's, yeah, yeah, we have a lot to say about everything. I feel, yeah, we have a lot to say about everything.

Mak: 44:07

I feel like we're just this. We're like almost 45 minutes in and we could have like 15 episodes. All right.

Valerie: 44:13

Here's the point If you are a creative person, which you're listening to this podcast, I would bet that you feel that you are a creative person in some way. We want to lift you up, boost you up. We're your cheerleaders. You are doing important work for yourself and for the world by pursuing this and giving yourself the gift of following those nudges, following those whispers. We firmly believe that you opening up to your creativity, which is going to feel kind of rebellious if, especially, you have these leanings that we a lot of us do in culture about right or wrong, you know, good or bad, waste of time or not, responsible, adult or frivolous, and all of this stuff.

Valerie: 45:13

Go against. That is what we're telling you because we firmly believe and we are two people who have lived lives and careers and examples of how following that is what will open you up.

Mak: 45:28

I was just going to say we don't just, we're not just like making this up. This is what we've done. That's why we're so passionate about it, because we've lived it, we've done it. We've lived the other way, we've made the changes and now we're like so much more lit up, so much happier, we're making more money easier than we ever have, and it feels really great and we want you to have that too.

Mak: 45:58

So if you're new here and you don't know anything about us, we'll do an episode about us. We've started multiple companies. We've done big things. We've failed a ton of times. We've started multiple companies. We've done big things. We've failed a ton of times. We've made the biggest mistakes that you can make. But that's why we're here, because we know that it can be done. But we're not like your typical guru who's saying here's a system to do this. We're saying we want to help you do it for yourself in the way you need to do it, because everyone is unique and everyone is different. There is no one size fits all solution for this.

Mak: 46:32

The thing to do is to start living in joy and happiness today and pursue those little whispers. Pursue those little whispers, and this isn't something that's going to be easy like snap overnight. All of a sudden, tomorrow you feel great. You might have to start with five minute increments and it's just giving yourself five minutes of total bliss, whether it's taking a bath or buying a Starbucks and walking through the park or listening to a favorite song or calling a friend I don't know what it is, but whatever it is that you can program in your day where you can feel true joy. And when those negative thoughts try to interrupt you, just look at them and you go. Okay, I recognize you, but I'm letting it go because I'm living in pure joy right now and I'm leaning into who I'm meant to be and you slowly increase that every day. This stuff will start to come together for you and it will come together quickly.

Valerie: 47:23

And here's the last thing I want to say about that is we're talking back about that addiction to feeling bad and the flight or fight and all of that which we are so often in as a culture. That is like where we all live in this fight or flight mode and creativity actually shuts down. Creativity opens up this way of thinking, those whispers, those nudges, everything we're talking about it comes when you activate that parasympathetic part of your nervous system that rest and digest. So what Mac is saying? We hear all of these things that can sound so fluffy. It's like, oh, self--care, self-love, whatever. We can really just shove that off, I think, pretty easily, but it is actually your gateway to your most magical, lit up self and your life and who you are meant to be.

Valerie: 48:21

That is counterculture, but it is so true. And it's not just about numbing out, it's not just about not ignoring your feelings. This is like this journey that we are all going on and that you are going on with us on this podcast is a journey of self discovery. It's learning about yourself. It's about moving through some of these emotions in these healthy ways. You're going to start to notice but what we hope that you take away, I think from this episode is you have this within you, because every single person has a unique brand of magic within them.

Valerie: 49:03

That is why there's not a one size fits all approach. That is why you don't get the manual of being, a human manual 101. Here go, you know. Everybody has their own path. Everybody has their own journey. You are capable of the most incredible things and having a life that you love. We believe it is creativity that opens the door to that and that goes beyond any one form of art. It is just a way of being which, to us, is operating in curiosity, not being outcome oriented, loving what you are doing, prioritizing flow, state over hustling, and working and doing, and that is what we're going to take you on in this journey of the podcast.

Mak: 49:56

It's getting you to a place where you're living your life in freedom and fulfillment. That's it. That's all. Any of us are really looking for freedom and fulfillment, and and purpose, and that's what a purposeful like what it's all about because you are magic.

Valerie: 50:15

You are actually magic, and you have something within you that nobody else in the whole entire world, that ever was and ever will be, has. You're here, you are made to make. You are made for what is whispering to you, because the only reason it's whispering to you is because it's in you. You don't have those thoughts. Not everybody is having those nudges and those promptings. You're getting that because that is you, and so our job, we feel, is to open everybody up to that, and we want to help you get there, because you have a superpower there that is just waiting to be unlocked we're there that is just waiting to be unlocked.

Mak: 51:10

Do us a favor, and this is super important If you have found this episode to be helpful to you in any way or you've enjoyed it at all, please take a second and go on Apple or on Spotify. Give us a review, hit the five stars, give us a review, because that really helps the algorithm get the podcast in front of other people and it also helps us to see how we're doing. If you hated the podcast, don't review it at all, just leave it alone. You can find another podcast that I'm sure will suit you. I'm just kidding. I'm not, but I'm just kidding. But anyway, please take a moment to do that, and I know that's a big ask. I know it's a big ask because it's kind of a pain to do, but it would really mean a lot. So take a second to do that for us today and I know this is only episode two and we're still figuring it out and all of that but it really, it really would mean a lot to us because we're so passionate about this. Thank you so much for listening.

Valerie: 52:06

Yes, thank you so much and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.

Mak: 52:11

Bye.